From Quick Fixes to True Fulfillment: Finding Purpose Beyond the Moment w/ Ian Simkins

Transcript

welcome to the Shameless podcast where I help Christian men kill shame stand strong and live on Mission I'm your host Ken PL and I'm bringing you real stories practical insights and biblical truths that equip you to break free from your sin shame and live a life of purpose let's step out of the Shadows together and Into the Light of Christ everybody welcome back to the Shameless podcast today I have with me lead pastor of The Bridge Church here in Spring Hill Tennessee Ian Simkins and he's been a lead Pastor since 2010 so Ian you have massive amounts of experience with men thank you for coming on the podcast of course man I'm honored to be invited thanks for having me yeah well today we're having a a fantastic conversation and the topic that we're going to talk about is helping men find their god-given purpose as a means to overcome their distractions and their sins and specifically this sin of pornography that we talk about in L my first question to you actually before we get to do a massive deep dive is tell us something fun about yourself that most people wouldn't know uh if they just met you on the street sure I mean uh I'm the oldest of seven kids outside of Detroit Michigan but something that I learned early on is that all of my uncles rode the unicycle school and so they taught most all of us and I have a ton of cousins so there's probably realistically maybe 25 of us on my mom's side of the family that can ride the unicycle and every year for our family reunion we would gather and we'd play unicycle hockey together and uh that is usually that's not a story that I can usually weave in naturally in conversation and I think people might be surprised to learn that okay so if I ever see someone randomly driving a unicycle or riding a unicycle here I'll just assume it's you the chances are really good that it's me absolutely how often do you get a chance to ride your unicycle bro I haven't I haven't ridden so long I know where it is my brother and I we used to ride around town like it was our bicycle we just found so much joy in like seeing people's dumbfounded reactions but it's not super practical it's really uncomfortable you can only do do it for so long so I don't even know it's been a long time since I've ridden it yeah and I'm sure it's kind of like riding a bicycle that you can get it on it pretty quickly and it's just like muscle memory boy maybe I'm too nervous to try to be honest the way that my uncle taught me he's like you basically just fall forward the whole time and then pedal to catch up with yourself and I'm like that's a pretty terrifying proposition which maybe would explain why a lot of people don't do it yeah you you know as soon as you said that my heart just started racing cuz I was like I'm going to face plant and eat it the whole time well that's what unicycle hockey thing was so unwise because unicycles are already kind of treacherous and then you give everyone a long wooden stick like a stick in a spoke of unicycle means there just bodies flying everywhere someone was always getting a bloody nose or dislocating their arm or whatever and we thought that was amazing yeah you're like this is the best thing ever of course of course you should bring it back the next family reunion I'll work on it I'll get unicycle ready exactly okay well that is not the conversation we're having today but that was a fun one you're gonna have to weave it into a sermon at some point sure I'll work on it but we're going to talk about helping men find their god-given purpose and I think the the biggest thing in your experience now why do you think that this is such a pervasive struggle amongst men even within the church hm yeah I think the idea of purpose has certainly gotten co-opted by a lot of other parodies and I think part of what uh in my limited experience I think when we lack purpose we distract with pleasure not that I think you know I'm not a masochist I don't think pleasure is wrong but I do think when we don't have some kind of vision for our lives and who we are in Christ and what that actually means as you know a husband or a father if you are one I think without that it's an old analogy but the boiling of a frog it's just that slow cranking up of the heat that you don't really realize until you've blinked in 20 years of passed and you're like oh I haven't actually I haven't chased after anything I haven't fought for anything and that's always to me that needs to be held in tension because there are very few times in the New Testament that it says that we are to be ambitious and the couple of times that it does it says things like make it your ambition to live a quiet life so that that kind of instruction does sort of fly in the face sometimes of our like Reach for the Stars change the world so that's not what I mean when I mean by purpose I think sometimes we hold up like the inventors of great technology or the curers of great diseases or whatever I think purpose has a lot more to do with living life intentionally like who was mine to love and care for and Shepherd and to do that with intention like Annie dard says how we live our days is how live our lives I think a lot of men in particular sometimes desire big Grand romantic or heroic acts but we fail in the like subtle mundane like the easily overlooked stuff you know my buddy's got a a sign over his kitchen sink and it says everyone wants a revolution no one wants to do the dishes I find men in particular struggle in that space like we all kind of at some point we'll fantasize about doing something remarkable but we're Maybe missing like the quiet patient mundane common ways that God has right before us to live out our purpose you know I think it's um I think it's catcher in the Ry JD singer says uh uh the mark of an immature man is that he wants to Die nobly For A Cause but the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one I think there's a lot of wisdom in that particularly when it comes to like unpacking and engaging with our purpose uh I think it often looks much more mundane than we realize yeah it's interesting I I had a friend who used to tell me a lot of us men we have that heroic Instinct inside of us that we want to die for something great but we're not willing to Die daily you know Die daily to our struggles Die daily to our sin but at the same time like Die daily to the distractions that we have so that we could actually focus on the purposeful things I love how you said it like intentionality to loving one another and the people around us totally and I think that that that is we've seen examples of this I actually just read this in a book yesterday where there was a story of somebody who actually ended up doing something really heroic but six days prior it sent an email to a friend of his that was kind of despondent like I guess I'm gonna have to come to terms with the fact that I'm never going to do anything heroic but the person that was sharing the story saying but he was a man who lived by a code like he knew who in in the mundane in the ordinary and that's actually what prepared him to step into hero action when the moment like I think we imagine that like we'll become Heroes when the need arises but we're actually not like living the kinds of lives formally that would even make us prepared to step into action or to you know whatever the situation would demand and I just it was such a compelling example of a guy who like had had purpose was actually a little sad that he didn't feel like he was ever going to get a chance to to display it to share that but still lived by this code and then less than a week later had this opportunity to you know and it cost him his life but it saved thousands others like it was just this really remarkable picture of how backwards I think we sometimes get it you know yeah so talk to us about like guys who they do struggle right because they're like I want to live a heroic life but they hate the mundane and that mundane leads them to distractions and sinful habits sure that's a big question man um I think so brother Lawrence wrote a book called the practice of the presence of God and his his kind of aim his thesis is you know the aim of the Christ follower is to live in two places at once doing the dishes and in the presence of God driving to work and in the presence of God um you know doing the gardening and in the presence of God and I think we often lack awareness of God's presence even in the mundane and that's what makes it so unbearable for so many of us is because we're so dopamine addicted we're such a microwave culture we want things instantly fast right away in my experience it's often in the desert Seasons that God does his best work it's like it's in the wilderness that the roots go down deepest and yet most of us if left our own devices we want nothing to do with the Wilderness or the mundane we want up and to the right and we want exciting and we want fulfillment and I just think The Crucible of formation is actually in the mundane moments of every day so it's like the it's a little cliche but I like to say that public fruit grows from private formation if there's anybody that you look to as like a spiritual hero or a Titan or whatever I guarantee you whatever publicly whatever you admire about their public life there are hours of private things private decisions that we'll never see or never know and yet I feel like we of elevate and celebrate the success that this platform or this dollar amount or whatever and so we try to curse the ordinary in pursuit of that not realizing like man what ultimately got that person there likely was actually a series of very small decisions compounded over 20 years or that formed them into the kind of person you know formation is way more Crock-Pot than microwave yeah you can microwave a stew if you want it's not going to be nearly as good though and so you know we want these faster and when and we fall into it all the time and pastors are not immune you know I get emails all the time they're like quadruple your church attendance in 48 hours like I don't think it's supposed to work like that actually maybe maybe sometimes you yeah but by and large I think it's it's much more Slow Burn so I think if we can learn to like reclaim the ordinary as Sacred Space not just when the endorphins are high or when the song crescendos or at the spiritual Retreat and all those things are good by the way like those are all like physiological I think that's how we're made by Design but to reclaim this the sacred sense of the ordinary I think has a I don't know it's just it's the question of like Lord what are you doing even in this moment you know we tend to assume that like God only moves it's the story of Elijah right he wasn't in the fire or the wind he was actually in the still Small Voice and that for a lot of men in particular is the thing that I think we're running from and any kind of Stillness any kind of Silence any kind of rest of any kind and yet we're surprised that when we live like that we don't hear from God you know yeah and you know what's crazy is that when I think about us running away from the still Small Voice we think we're going to run to somewhere neutral but what ends up happening we run to something more sinful that's right most of the time and you're like what just happened it's because God wanted to speak to us back then but we got scared and right you know I was just talking to a friend who was like I hate sitting in quiet time like it's just it freaks me out they're like I need to be busy all the time and I'm like why and they're like oh it's just like if I feel like I sit down I'm not good enough and I'm like when are you gonna let God actually just speak to you in those moments yes and they were like ah I don't think I could do that I'm like that's I think it's even more ontological than that I think that is and I can totally relate to that by the way I am not good at sitting still I'm not good at I have that same productivity itch you know I had a mentor years ago that really lovingly pulled me aside one day and he said Ian does does your pace of life look like that of someone who actually wants to hear from God and I he didn't even need to tell me the answer I knew the answer you know but he presented it as a question but part of what I realized is it's not just because you can be legalistic about it you know like carve out Stillness time and you and sometimes that's necessary sometimes that's even good but if I zoom back even further and I think Henry Nan talks about this he says one of the greatest things that we can commit our life to is leading from a place of belovedness that you are the Beloved in Christ even when you accomplish nothing even when you fall flat in your face and I think until we can actually like truly rest in that as our identity rest will always feel like stress if busyness is your drug if that is the thing that you are using to either self-medicate or fulfill some sense of importance like rest will always feel like stress because you're currently addicted to a completely different posture of life and until you actually get at why why am I actually addicted to constant activity constant noise constant production I mean until you actually unpack the why you'll just fill it with a different Vice yeah you know back in 2020 a lot of us were going through a little something here right yeah but I actually got really sick and I what I didn't realize is that I had burnt out like adrenal fatigue there was a bunch of stuff that ended up happening and uh my doctor was like you need to slow down your life so much that it has to look completely different she's like you can't get elevated stress you can't even get super excited I had to become stoic I'm like that sounds so weird cuz I'm very driven I'm going to go 100 miles an hour I'm doing a ton of stuff I had a lot of stuff on my plate and she's like no no you can't even do that she's like Ken you can't even go watch a movie that might spike your adrenaline no kidding yeah she's like you just got to go watch anag Green Gables I'm like I'm gonna die of boredom and going back to purpose right I was like that sounds like the most useless wasteful purposeless life I could have ever lived and she's like but that's because you don't know how to slow down right and it it took eight months for me to all of a sudden realize how much I was burning both ends of the wick and I was like what have I been doing my whole life that I've just been going Non-Stop and I still have those Tendencies I still like if I'm not mindful I'm like oh let's just keep doing it totally so like I am one of those people that is very ambitious same how do you help men like that who are ambitious and that ambition actually is driving them away from their purpose oh man great question I don't think God is anti- ambition to be honest um I don't think the answer to toxic ambition is sloth I don't think that's the like you just need to go get a Hut on an island and live out your days on the beach I don't think that's the answer I did have a a friend say time off won't heal you if the problem is how you spend time on I thought that that was pretty apt because I'm like you where I was actually I was really good at an early age at like guarding Sabbath I was pretty militant about it but I was killing myself six days out of the week collapsing for one and then just doing it all over again and I had a buddy kind of pull me aside and he's like hey I honor you for your commitment to Sabbath but the rest of your life still feels like chaos I don't know that that's the point of Sabbath rest so I didn't actually address the ambition piece I just like militantly legalistically held on to this idea of a 24-hour period of rest so that didn't fix it the way that I had thought it would and I realized so much of my ambition was aimed to try to either quiet a voice or counteract a narrative and I don't know where this comes from man maybe you can relate to this somewhere along the line of my early adulthood I bought the lie that I am only as valuable as what I can produce like that just embedded itself so clearly and what's ironic is that at the same time I'm preaching sermons that are against that and yet internally still believing man if you're not producing if you're not achieving if you're not so so I needed to surround myself with people who would like Speak Life and Truth back into me this wasn't something I was going to think my way out of I tried that path you like oh I just need to think better thoughts that'll cure this I like realized and that was pretty hard for me to admit I was like I need people more than I realized like gospel Community to speak the truth of my identity over me when I was pursuing all these other things to try and fulfill it and that was really that was harder for me than I thought it would be I thought I could just sort of come up with my own game plan Implement and then be healthier and I don't know I was just compelled by like in the New Testament there's something like 59 one anothers just like there's over and over and over again these examples like you were not meant to try and Traverse this road on your own and I for so long just assumed I was the exception I was like ah you maybe need people but I think I got this I think I you know and unfortunately I'm one of those guys that kind of has to fall flat on his face a few times before I get the message I wish I was one of those like repent early and often yes Lord whatever you say and I'm more like God needs to like pin me to the mat before I'm like okay all right you tricked over your own foot and then he's like hey I don't like that about me but it's just it's part of how I'm wired I think so yeah inviting people into that struggle was one of the healthiest things I think I've ever done yeah you know it's interesting that most people that I've ever talked to have never I don't think and even myself as we talk about this I don't know if I've ever talked intentionally with someone about helping me through my performance struggle right like in an accountability sense of things I've had mentors speak into it I'm looking for rest but to truly be like hey guys I have a performance struggle that I'm like my identity is wrapped in my performance and I need help for sabath I don't think I've ever heard that in a small group well and that that's what's kind of dark to be honest man because we live in a time where alcoholics get treatment but Workaholics get Applause like there's that's part of what drove me to it so early on I was like okay I'm getting a lot of accolades when I put in 13-hour days and when I say yes to every request and when I you know I mean like there's a lot of cheerleaders on the road to workaholism and burnout and so to ask for accountability for it for a lot of people was like why that's not a sin like why would you ask for accountability about a porn addiction or substance abuse or whatever but not performance and you know I think it was rich votus who said when he when he took over for Pete Pete cazo in in New York uh the legend is that Pete said um there's one thing you can do that'll get you fired from this job and Rich was like what what is it he goes if you don't take a Sabbath H he talks about how that was not at all what he expected the answer to be and he says if you don't commit to taking a regular rhythm of rest you will not have the depth that you will need to draw from in order to lead a church effectively I just thought that was really wise like someone bluntly saying oh no I'll fire you for this if you don't if you don't prioritize this uh you will do harm to yourself and others and I just I I won't it's the first time I'd ever heard a pastor be that firm on it and I I think honestly there's there's some real wisdom to that yeah well man I think that our church culture desperately needs that if you think about just you and I talking about our tendency to hustle right most churches and the pastors are burning out they're stressed out they're working 50 plus hours a week I talked to a lot of pastors and Ministry leaders who come to me for my job uh at full focus and they're just like I am exhausted I cannot stop and I'm like you need to slow down and they're like I have no idea how to slow down and it's this constant hustle culture that our society loves and it's actually infiltrated our churches and also individuals now because that's what they think performance should look like is hustle and then I think also with purpose they think oh I need to hustle in order to achieve my purpose totally and and I don't want I don't want to put too much stock in this but I was thinking about this when came to the bridge and we were you know sort of rethinking about our Mission Vision Values type stuff kind of looking at a lot of other churches you know slogans or mission statements and realizing how many of them begin either with a verb or an adverb like they it begins first with action with doing and yeah I think most of that's really well- intended but I'm like oh man I wonder if this is part of it like even in our language like what are we about as a church doing and I'm like yes part of it we are on Mission we are sent people but man mission is fueled by presence and if we skip over presence and go right to Mission it's like a tree with no root system like it'll grow some branches and maybe some leaves but eventually it'll it'll topple beneath the weight and I think even yeah to your point Even in our and how pastors model it you know like I had to this is really embarrassing man but I had to really come to terms with the fact that for much of my life I wasn't even trying to be less busy because busyness meant that I felt important I liked if someone looked over my shoulder and saw how full my calendar was there's a little part of my brain that's like yeah I I feel affirmed in that uh if our if our leaders are setting the pace and the tone for our churches and the pace is unsustainable we can't be all that surprised if people follow suit you know yeah and that's where I found that for a lot of guys when I've worked with them when their ambition takes them too far and they're burning out they fall into so much sexual sin because they're like I need to Medicaid I need to cope I need to figure things out that's right but you said something man interesting um that like presence right you talked about presence dictates like your fruitfulness and you've said it a few times now where you're like thinking about brother Lawrence practicing the presence of God and now talking about presence how does presence help people fig especially men figure out their purpose yeah so many so many examples in scripture like the um the simple distillation that I like to use is you know when Jesus says come follow me and I will make you Fishers of Men there are really three significant moves and that's sort of how we've organized ourselves as a church come follow me it's an invitation to presence just come be with me and then he says and I will make you so there's a formation piece you spend enough time with Jesus you don't stay the same he's going to chip away at some stuff there's a formation a transformation that happens Fishers of Men you're going to be a sense person I'm going to send you back out to to do what I am doing but I think the order is significant Jesus never says go for me before he says be with me and I think when he talks about like the Sheep knowing the voice of the shepherd you don't get to know someone's Voice without spending time with them like there is Jesus seems to be really really interested that we are very familiar with the shepherd's voice and yet for some reason we think that that doesn't actually translate to spending any real time with him and we know that that doesn't work at a human level like oh this is my best friend Steve like when was the last time you saw Steve you're like 1987 you're like maybe maybe not I maybe maybe and you know that's a different I I just think we intimacy requires intentionality and if the goal isn't just to do things for God but do them with God I mean that's the rebuke in Revelation to right where he's saying hey it's actually I think it's a bit of a word for today's climate because he begins first with accolades he's like hey I see all the good work you're doing and he kind of goes on this list like offering real encour genuine like yeah genuine you guys are crate here way to go but I do hold this one thing against you you have left your first love Jesus seems to take it really seriously when we do things for him but not with him and I just think in my own life man those if I look back over my shoulder those are often the seasons that I I was the most unhealthy when I was doing good Jesus E Church type things but I knew deep down I was doing a whole lot more for Jesus than I was doing with him and bro I I mean I think you'll agree with this activity is a terrible trade-off for intimacy and they often look the same um but it is it is not an equal trade and I unfortunately have made that trade far too many times in my life and um I just yeah I think that men in particular can fall into that a lot why do you feel like men fall into that because I think when I talk to men men struggle with intimacy so they try to find a replacement and it's activity they're like well I'm doing all these things right with their marriages they do it they're like oh yeah I did all these things for my wife I'm supporting her but like no no I want you to be with me and we take that same thing with our relationship with God I know so why do you feel like that is well let me just first say I don't think it's all bad either yeah somebody made some comment the other day I don't know who said it first but they said by and large women tend to connect face to face and Men connect shoulder-to-shoulder uh I think there's some wisdom to that face to face you know like um over a meal or something like that men and again obviously these are generalization yeah generalizations for sure but I think that there is there can be intimacy found in in activity I don't think the goal is to become a monk and just sit in silence on the top of a mountain I don't think that's the aim at all but I do think for for a myri of reasons I think often there's a an UND with Father wound I think it is uh undal with rejection fear uh that if I actually allow myself to be fully known if I'm supposed to be the protector the provider the stoic never let him see a sweat well if I let my guard down then I well I'm going to lose respect from the people I'm leading or they won't trust my instincts or what you know those are often the lives that I think that I I believed but I also think like in a marriage example doing things for is often easier than doing things with I personally I like planning big grandiose romantic gestures I do that but that's not always what my wife needs and she's like yeah thank you for the hor strong Carriage I actually just need someone to listen to me right now I had a really rough day and I don't need all of I just need I just need you and I it's taken me a lot longer to learn that than I realized but I also think like David David oxberger has this this line he says being listened to is so close to being loved that for the average person they're almost indistinguishable so I I'll ask men I'll say when was the last time that you felt really loved and when they describe it I'll usually say something like yeah that sounds a lot like presence that sounds a lot like intimacy so if that's how you received that why are we so unwilling to pursue that with our relationships going forward and that I think that is sometimes helpful to kind of juxtapose it with you know the times that we felt really seen and known and loved and um easier said than done though man there's there's a lot of layers to it yeah and when you think about that layer right what would you say for those guys who are say struggling with yeah presence what would be a good first layer to overcome and steps to take to be like all right I want to pursue intimacy sure yeah I mean I think there's been a lot that's been written like in the habit space you know like James clear and some of those writers have uh I think provided some really helpful resources honestly I would make it I would start really small like the amount of people who have their phone right next to their bed and it's the last thing they look at every night and the first thing they look at every morning listen no judgment no judgment that's not even a moral thing I just think man if someone was telling me man I struggle to be really present and I'm like is your phone the first and last thing you look at every day that might be contributing to some of our either our distractability or like what narrative has the lowest voice in our life if it's social media that is not leading to your flourishing I can say that with confidence like sometimes it's something as simple as Begin by plugging your phone in somewhere else in the house just start there doesn't have to begin with two hours of meditation every morning and you know I mean for some people that works for most of us though it's like what if you one day a week didn't listen to anything in your car on your commute to work and you just talked with God you're already in the car you don't have to even carve out any additional time what if you just took one commute one day a week like this is my time just to be with God I'm not going to turn on the radio or a podcast or make phone calls like those decisions are things that are within most all of our power that don't require a Bible degree or a thousand dollar worth of tech you can just you know what I mean there's these simple choices that I think we all can make uh if it's something that we want to pursue with more intentionality yeah those are great tips that I think about when looking at how do you help men become more intimate and just practical right because sometimes they're just like I don't know what this looks like uh I found a lot of times guys especially they were more rugged and tough they're yeah when you talk about being intimate with God that sounds weird you know yeah but when you're like no man you just want to hear his voice like how do you hear his voice you do these things four and once you do that he actually starts speaking to you about your purpose that's right and what you're supposed to be doing and I love how you said like and this is actually part of the Bridge's mission right like you're going to be with God and then you're going to do things for God right or for the sake of the world I think is the way you put it yeah yeah when you guys think about it that way right how do you help men to figure out their purpose and especially when PE men think that their purpose should be like this heroic thing like day to day life on life how should they figure out their purpose man couple of things I'll say one is going to be pretty unpopular I don't think purpose is nearly as specific as a lot of us make it I think we want this lightning bolt Bullseye what position am I supposed to hold in what company in what city in what state I actually don't know that it works like that for most people maybe sometimes I think it's much more what are the things we already know that Jesus has told us to do the Great Commission the great commandment John 17 like the unity of his church like there's things already that most of us aren't doing that like in my own life I often try to distract from my lack of obedience by asking for new new insight new revelation and I think it was Marshall McLaren he he said that many of us have a low information to action ratio because we're taking in more information than our brains can even handle you know all of the world's tragedies all the world's drama whatever and it's making us completely inactive in like whatever space that we've been placed in charge of so I think purpose for most of us is far less do I take this job or this job do I move to this city or this city it's like man am I loving the Lord my God with all my heart soul mind and strength loving my neighbor as myself and am I am I taking steps to preach the gospel to share the gospel to make disciples to baptize in the name of Jesus like those are the things that he was clear on and uh I think was Augustine who said something he said something like love the Lord and do as you please like give him your heart yeah and then sandbox is pretty big and that might be as a mechanic or a business owner or uh a graphic designer or like I think that there's provision for a lot of that and purpose uh Frederick bner he talks about it under the language of vocation but I think it applies he talks about vocation as the place your great joy and the world's great need overlap and I come back to that as a vend diagram a lot like okay what is that what's the thing that like stirs my heart for God and others and I can see at least in my tiny corner of the universe like I think there's an actual need for this uh that's been a helpful way to kind of think through and it's been helpful for other men because I don't think everyone sometimes people will say to me as a pastor I want to quit my job and go into Ministry and I always want to tell them what if I told you you're already in Ministry like you if you are in Jesus at this job and in this neighborhood you are having conversations with people that I'll never have conversations with that may never actually show up to church but you have an opportunity to redeem this work environment or this neighborhood to bring that the kingdom of God from Heaven to Earth that's the invitation the charge that we're given and so I think purpose is a lot less about this granular or this decision or that decision and more about man what has Jesus already invited us into and how can I with a community of other men or other people begin to take steps Faithfully in that direction you know we talk about small groups at our church all the time because I believe in them I think that is where transformation is found I love preaching I can't believe that I get to do it like it's one of the great joys of my life but I don't think the bulk of transformation happens from listening to sermons I think it happens in the context of relationship and walking it out and so yeah I think a man trying to find purpose and isolation is at the very least not not the wisest methodology in the world yeah it's not helpful going back to what you were saying earlier it's like the one another right like exactly if in over if in order to overcome performance you need one another how much more do you need one another to help you one see what you're supposed to do with your purpose and two actually living out that purpose totally I mean that is that is the again you know I'm a Jesus guy so I'll keep pointing back to that but there's so many examples in the New Testament where like Villages were begging Jesus to stay just a little bit longer perform one more miracle and he's regularly retreating from the very legitimate demands of the people to say no I have to I need to be with the father like I need to go be so like there's this very real like for a people pleasure like me you know that can be really hard to do like well their needs are real I can actually help with this but I'm not guarding intimacy at all like it has to be a a both and and to be in relationship with one another like God is himself relationship father son and spirit and so if we're made in the image and likeness of a God who ontologically is relationship why would we think that flourishing for our lives would come apart from that like I just to me it feels so like he makes it so clear and yet in our hyper individualized isolated silo encies you know I think many of us think that we're the exception and the other thing I'll say about Community too because I'm certainly sympathetic to the person that they joined a small group or like a recovery group or whatever and they they didn't Jive and it it wasn't like a great fit and they're like you know what forget this I knew this was whack uh I think that there's space for that but I also think Community like gospel Community is way more forged than found I don't think you just like trip on it you're like oh here's my I found it this is my perfect Community I think it's like a thing that you know you got to kind of work on and fight for a little bit there's no perfect marriage you you got to work on it and not just on your anniversaries like it is a you know what I mean it's what you were saying it's a a daily dying to self it's a daily not my will but yours be done it's a taking up my cross it is looking not to my interest with the interest of others like these are not things that I don't think I don't think we ever graduate from any of them but by God's grace like a muscle they get stronger the more that we do it so in my own life sins that 10 years ago were like a knock down drag out fight anytime I was tempted it's not that they're not tempting anymore but it's not that same UFC level bloody nose battle it's just like I know hey I don't go down that route anymore I don't even I don't even turn down that street like my muscle memory points in a different direction now that's the nature that's the language of transformation and I think that is the that's the aim for all of us yeah you know I'm reminding everything you just said reminds me of Romans 12 right like offer yourself up as a Living Sacrifice yes for the renewing of your mind so that this would be honorable and pleasing to God and I'm like that's exactly it and the more you do that the more you find yourself being with God and doing things for God those two things end up happening um I as as we start to wrap up this conversation and I feel like you and I could just talk for hours and even if this thing was recorded we're like oh we forgot talk about unicycles again sorry I was about to go on a total tangent there but I was like I'm brought it back as you think about helping men I know that there's a lot of myths that you kind of busted like even I was thinking about sometimes you feel disconnected with your job because you just feel like you have to pay the bills but you said something really important you're like but there are Ministry moments there right how can you help men as we wrap up here really focus their tension so that they can see every moment of their day being purposeful for the Great Commission purposeful for being with God and ultimately purposeful for loving those around them great question man couple of things you mentioned Romans 12 I had a mentor that used to say to us he said that's the problem with a Living Sacrifice is that they have a tendency to climb off the altar yeah and I just think that imagery is so apt because you know in a sacrificial system not to be crass but like you would sacrifice an animal and then it's not going anywhere if our invitation is to be a Living Sacrifice that means we don't Just Surrender once back at church camp and we're good so there is like a daily dying to self that I think we are invited into that can be a real struggle because some of the stuff that I Think Jesus is asking us to die to we don't want to die to I think men in particular I think we have a tendency sometimes to tame what the Bible says to put to death like we keep pet sins over here like yeah I don't plan on going there but I'm going to keep for a rainy day maybe and like now the the language of the Bible is the Puritans give us the language of mortification like put to death these sinful desires that's intense language on purpose don't manage it don't teach it to do tricks put it to death the other thing I would say is that I think it honestly begins with uh like a level of expectation that maybe a lot of us are uncomfortable with like it sounds silly man but I started even certain like prayer rituals in my car like Lord just give me eyes to see with your eyes like help me just to be help me to have Radars up you know help me to have a sense of what it is that you want to do when I'm at this coffee shop when I really need head down work but there's someone in my peripheral that I have this nagging sense like man I think I'm supposed to go talk to this person like soften my heart for those moments because and and I think you'll agree with this what's lacking is never God's presence We Are Always In God's Presence what's often lacking is our awareness of it so my prayer has become not Lord be more present in this moment it's shifted and it's Lord make me more aware of your presence in this moment you already here you are already doing work you are already stirring in these conversations and the guy in the cubicle to my right and the neighbor behind me like my buddy Hugh talks about about it as uh he says Kingdom work is like archaeology we are always unearthing God where are you already at work in this guy's marriage and in that conversation and in this teller and this waiter and this you know I mean that to me is a much more compelling invitation it's not okay men now go and like make Kingdom things happen go and generate Spirit Sanctified it's like no no no no it's Lord where are you already at work and help me to understand how I can join you in that it's like in a pretty beautiful way takes the pressure off of us to like manufacture something but it's also a posture of Readiness like okay help me to have Radars up help me to see with your eyes and help me to have the courage to actually step into that and I'll warn anyone listening be sure you actually want to pray that prayer because the God will open your eyes to things and make you more aware of people in a way that sometimes to be totally Frank does not fit nicely into my calendar or my plan for the day you know and it disrupts some things but it's like such a beautiful way uh it's like the kind of thing once you get a a sense of it you're like Lord I want deeper waters I just want to keep growing in this capacity to understand where it is that you're at work and how I can join you in it and I think that's what's been helpful for me in kind of reclaiming the sacred ordinary of what most of us are not living on mountaintop moments all the time most of us are commuting and paying our bills and having dinner and watching Netflix you know what I mean there's just a certain level of like Lord help me to have a more Kingdom perspective for all of it and I think and I think that he gives it that and you know I I love that aspect of when you have your eyes opened to doing those things how radically people's lives I know when I started doing that man I feel like my purpose completely shifted because I just started looking for those people that I'm like oh who does God want me to speak to today and it actually drove me like you said earlier like it's the daytoday actions that you do to help me uncover more of what I really wanted to do with life that's right totally I don't need to quit my job I don't need to all of a sudden be like oh my gosh I'm doing this big thing you're like you can still be the CEO I right I can't tell you how many times I have conversations at my job uh it's not a faith-based company or anything like that but people come to me and I just feel like the Lord all of a sudden is like hey you need to bring this up I'm like okay I am on a sales call right now yeah and and then I do and I yeah I can't tell you and I say this for those who are listening as an encouragement that when you start to do it how much more exciting your job gets because it no longer becomes mundane you actually feel like you're on Mission cultivating and discovering those little bits and pieces of where God is moving because for me man there are times God just drops something on my heart for someone I'm like I know this sounds crazy and again I'm on a sales CL like I know this sounds crazy as I'm hearing you I actually sense that this is what's really going on and people start crying and they're like how did you know that I'm like well do you want to know my real answer or do you want to know my diplomatic answer right right nine out of 10 times they're like no like how did you know that I'm like and we talk about faith a little bit and then we get back into the discussion but that's the beauty of purpose right is that purpose is not this mountain type like you said it's always this like hey in the dayto day mundane God just shows up yes so I love that man as we finish off any final words of encouragement for people who are listening to this and they're like I want to know more about like looking for my purpose drawing more into intimacy with him and not being distracted by all these things any final words of encouragement I would say stay in there you're not alone I think that men in particular can be driven to a a certain level of Bel belie that they're the only ones facing what they're facing and that ironically drives us further and further away from the people that I think could help uh I just finished a book by Jeff Bethy and John Tyson called fighting Shadows uh I just would highly recommend that that's a really helpful kind of practical resource for like how do how do we actually overcome some of these things but it's geared specifically for men it's just a really it's well written it's practical but it had it had some really I think Keen Insight on and it did exactly that we walked through with some some of our staff men and I think even those times have been a good reminder that CS lewis' definition of friendship right when you see someone else you go oh you too there's a real gift to knowing oh I'm not the only one who's ever had that thought or struggled in this area and there's I I don't know I find a lot of strength to keep going knowing man I'm not the first or last person that's ever felt this way and that when God looks at me uh he calls me son like what better thing to be called by the creator of the Universe he's like yeah whether you're crushing it or struggling or somewhere in between you are my beloved Son and to do everything that else that I do from that place of belovedness to me has been maybe the single greatest shift in my life yeah and we're going to leave it there because that is probably the most important if not the most important thing right like when we come to Faith In Jesus like that we are beloved children of God it changes everything totally awesome I for for those people who are like man I love what you're spitting I love the truth tell us where can we find you and about the bridge sure man yeah you can go to uh bridg TV is our church website uh you can go to Ian Simkins dcom Oran Simkins on Instagram those are two decent places to find me I think my MySpace is still active if you want to head over there uh I probably have a live Journal floating around somewhere those probably be the two best places to to head yeah uh I love it man Ian thank you so much for being a part of the podcast I I appreciate uh the time that we've gotten to know each other and just the wisdom that you've had and really talking about stuff that a lot of the culture doesn't want to talk about right now especially even in the church it's all about doing not about being so thank you so much for that it my pleasure man thanks thanks for the invite means a lot yeah absolutely all right for you men who are listening to this I want you to take courage that like everything that Ian was just talking about is the foundation to how you help yourself kill shame stand strong and beond Mission until next time hope you guys have a great day and God bless thanks for joining us today if you found this episode helpful make sure to subscribe and leave a review remember killing shame isn't just about breaking free from the past it's about walking boldly into the future God has for you