Shame’s Greatest Enemy: Vulnerability and the Road to Recovery.

Transcript

welcome to the Shameless podcast where I help Christian men kill shame stand strong and live on Mission I'm your host Ken play and I'm bringing you real stories practical insights and biblical truths that equip you to break free from your sin shame and live a life of purpose let's step out of the Shadows together and Into the Light of Christ all right welcome back to another episode today we are going to be talking about Shan's greatest enemy and the secret to recovery with Trevor Windsor now Trevor I'm super excited to have you because you are a licens pastor and a pastoral sex addiction professional right through if I remember correctly The International Institute of trauma and addiction professionals correct sweet you also have a bachelor's in psychology from Corbin University and a masters in Ministry and Leadership from Western Seminary Trevor you are a podcaster and a communicator who is passionate about integrating trauma and addiction healing with spiritual disciplines to produce holistic healing dude this is GNA be a fun fun conversation and I think your personality and my personality I think we're we probably need to not go crazy as much but it's gonna be a lot of fun I'm with you dude I mean I was coming in today I was thinking by the end of this you're going to ask me to co-host your podcast with you like that's just that's the vibe I'm feeling so that's too much fun we're gonna be co-hosting and we're gonna get canceled this is GNA be great all in one episode Let's do let's do one before we do the other let's do one before the other yeah sounds good sounds good okay uh well Trevor man before we jump into this um tell the audience something fun about yourself oh gosh man uh well I'm a seven on the anram so there's a lot of fun in my life uh and so for any of those people who know the anagram I think one of the fun things is I am an aspiring writer uh I'm probably like I don't know 30 40 pages away from finishing a novel and uh I've got in the chamber I have a TV show that I want to write uh and so yeah I've got all this like Ministry nonprofit experience but at the same time I love books and I love movies and I want to be in both so yeah I'd say that's fun that's awesome man I love it it's too bad that you decided to quote the inogram because we're gonna have to cancel this episode now but after that we're fine oh we already getting canell perfect perfect no no dude that's great okay so don't forget about me when you become famous and you write your book that's all I'm saying and your novels and everything I mean you're one to talk you've got your you know other shows you're a part of too so let's not get too ahead of oursel here all right Trevor man uh let's jump into it uh can you share a little bit about your story with lusted pornography yeah so I think a pretty standard story I think for people I was exposed I think around 10 or 11 years old to porography a close friend of mine was like check out this cool thing on the internet uh it was before like full-on porn was on uh the internet it was just a lot of naked pictures and um obviously first time you see that your mind just explodes you don't even know what to do with any of that information um and I think that that kind of you know led to I mean we're going to get into a lot of stuff with Shan but it's like there was something in me I knew it was wrong I knew something about this wasn't normal um I mean you know he showed it to me after his parents were asleep downstairs in the basement on a computer with the door shut like you know like the setting was clear around the same time um we were living in a neighborhood and I remember um back in the good old days when you let kids just kind to go out for hours and play in the c a sack and then come back later uh that's my childhood um I remember hearing the FW for the first time from a friend and later that night and it's so interesting to me how seared this moment is in my memory I remember I was laying on our couch out in our living room my parents were tucking me in I have no idea why I was sleeping on the couch that night but I asked my parents about this word that I heard and the immediate response from my mom was oh honey we do not say that word in this house and so what I didn't know at the time is that immediately I felt shame around the topic of sexuality because I find out what this word means but the first reaction is like whoa whoa whoa like no no we don't talk about that don't say that word and so for me that just kind of created this space where my parents aren't safe this is not something that we can talk about in the house and you know that paired with being exposed to pornography around the same time like okay this is something that's Now secret and this is my house is a safe place to explore this topic yeah dude I remember the first time I um confessed to my parents especially my dad that I had masturbated and it was one of those things where it was just like I did this thing and you know I'm like 13 or something like that I don't even know I don't have the words to articulate what happened and he was it was such awkward moment for him that he was like oh uh it happens tucks me into bed and we've never talked about it and I had that same feeling of like okay I guess I should never bring this up like it's super quiet right so how I know how that affected me but how did that affect your life yeah I think secrecy and shame are married together I think that they're best friends I think feeling that sense of Shame knowing it was wrong and then seeing how negatively my parents reacted to it told me like okay if I think about this I have to keep it secret like this isn't a safe place place for me to talk about it and I think that this just started my life of secrecy which I think was fueled by shame but I didn't realize that was the case um I also got into this mindset and I've heard a number of people say it this way that um and I believe the founder of uh pure desire Ministry Dr Ted Roberts said it that one of the I don't know where everyone all your listeners are at on the religious Spectrum but I come from a Christian background um so definitely heavy right and wrong a lot of principles a lot of This Is How We Do life but there's this saying from Dr Ted that the enemy or the devil um inflicts everyone with the same disease and then convinces everyone they're the only one who struggles with it and so for me this like secrecy and shame led to a belief that I'm the only person that struggles with this which means I can't really talk to anybody else about it and if I do I'm afraid I'm going to get the same reaction from my parents love me more than anybody but if that's how they respond then how will a friend at school or a pastor or somebody else respond and yeah I I think I I didn't really know it then but know it now that I didn't see anybody is safe and so that meant that I needed to do this alone and that is extremely challenging some aspects to kind of my life growing up that contributed is that my dad who's been been my hero my whole life was Superman to me I think I've seen him cry a total of now he's getting older he's a little softer but growing up I saw him maybe cry twice and honestly he just seemed like he didn't have any problems any issues and so for me he was Superman and the irony is that I needed Clark Kent not Superman as my dad I needed to know that you had flaws and that you had challenges like I did and that I can come talk to you I didn't get that Vibe and so for me the person I looked up to I was afraid of judgment I was afraid of rejection and I think for me seeing that picture of who my dad is it's like well I'm never going to get there but if I want to get there I have to pretend or I have to keep secrets in order to do that because clearly my dad doesn't struggle with any of this stuff which of course is not true everyone struggles with something um growing up in the Christian space and in the church there's a lot of emphasis on accountability and repentance and so spending time getting up the courage to then repent or ask for accountability you get the like oh if you lose your virginity it's like oh well you're no longer a virgin your marriage is ruined basically is the message that you tend to get and for me the I guess basically the tactics or the tools people would give me to try to break free from it are just try harder approaches like you just need to like spend more time reading the Bible or you just need to pray if you're tempted just pray really really really hard and then it's going to go away it's like that stuff never worked and so for me that just started a shame cycle of people I trust in love are telling me this is going to work I try to do it I can't do it which means I must not be good enough and so I already have shame from the struggle itself but now I've tried to break free from it and I have shame even more and so it's this double shame that just is this spiral and so for me you know that's created you know I don't think I was ever in a space of you know self harm or suicidal anything but there was definitely a hatred of myself that played out that also led me to looking for um Acceptance in relationships where I'm sexually acting out in my dating relationships and at the same time feeling tons of shame because I know that that's also that doesn't resonate with who I am or how I want to live my life but because of the shame and the secrecy it was a place I was being accepted and someone was seeing who I was and so you know there's also pleasure tied to it and so it's obviously my brain's like yeah let's do more of that and you know again to kind of wrap it all up like I knew all this stuff was wrong but I was stuck and I didn't know what to do about it yeah I think that's the hardest part for a lot of listeners and people who struggle with it is like they know that they shouldn't do it but they've tried all these things and they're like very similar to what you're were talking about right like just try harder just pray harder uh let's do all these behavior modification stuff I I remember one counselor was like just put a rubber band on your on your wrist and every time yeah snap it just snap it I'm like that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard I didn't do it I was like how's that supposed to but with people like that for you specifically what was the breaking point right because you had a lot of self-hatred a lot of Shame a lot of stuff going on at what point where you're like enough's enough I to change I need something different yeah I'd love to say that it was like this beautiful moment of you know like King Saul when he like comes to his senses in the wilderness and like you know all of a sudden this this beautiful moment of self-actualization and it wasn't it was I was a youth pastor in Salem Oregon and I had parents come to me saying their kids were sexting each other and they're like what do we do and the joke that I always say is that as a good leader I did the right thing by saying I have no idea but I'll go figure it out and so for me that led me to pursuing uh resources that I had heard of and that resource was pure desire Ministries I had some family working there at the time went to an event thinking I'm going to get resources to kind of help my students and help this ministry and you know help other people of course I know I'm struggling with this too but you know obviously I'm just in denial you know and I think that that's what happens I think shame and secrecy overtime cements into just denial like I'm not even willing to admit this is an issue anymore so I go to this event and it was interesting because the events up in Washington I think some guys from Canada who were in pure desire groups came down and so recovery groups they came down and we at this event I don't know these guys but watching them interact and watching them talk to each other in the breaks and the way they're talking about their relationships the way they're talking to each other and relating to each other there was something so interesting and so attractive about it um and I'm I'm a detail person and so it actually drives me nuts that I can't even remember what exactly it was there was just something about these guys the way they were relating to each other it's like what's that that's interesting to me I want some of that and I think it was at that event where I felt really clear okay I got to address this in my life and so praise the Lord for Ministry budgets I was able to buy just a bunch of stuff and bring it back to our church and start a recovery Ministry um and it's funny I would say as a a dad of two sons there's a lot of power in a recovery Journey starting to try to help someone else I went into that event thinking I'm going to get stuff to help other people and then the Lord's like well by the way dude you got some stuff you got to work on too I think that that's a great way and so for me that was a a huge motivation for that but yeah coming home from that event man I just hit the ground running uh started leading groups and started to see a ton we'll get into some more of my story and how that played out but I started to see recovery my own life started to see the power of vulnerability started to see the power of being open uh and honest and um yeah man started to see hope for the first time that this is actually something you can get better like this isn't something you have to be stuck with for the rest of your life so yeah it was those two parents coming to me saying our kids are sexting each other that started my recovery Journey nine years ago that's awesome man talk to us a little bit about that hope because I think so many people want that hope but they don't even know what it looks like when you started to see that hope what did that look like for you that you're like I could actually beat this I think it was when I started to see Clarity around my story I started to understand why was doing what I was doing that's one of the things I'm so passionate about is it's not just read your Bible more pray more serve more just pursue God more do more spiritual things you have to figure out why you're doing what you're doing it's almost like saying your car is making this really crazy sound so instead of opening the hood and trying to address what's going on just keep driving keep driving keep doing what you're doing Turn Up music better right seriously yeah not that those are ill-intentioned you know perspective perspectives I think that there's a lot of Merit to those things but when it's just that uh and you're not really addressing it I think that that's the I started to see I grew up in a pretty rigid and disengaged home I was trying to do a lot of behavior modification and I wasn't addressing the pain and difficulty in my life that had pushed me to sexual addiction sexually acting out pornography whatever it was I didn't realize where the problem really started and so for me when I figured that out where I was like oh it's not just like put all this accountability stuff on my computer and on my phone or be honest whenever I can it's figuring out why am I even going to those things in the first place and that is when I first felt hope that's awesome man and it's interesting that you talk about it because I talk a lot about getting to the roots of stuff right and you're talking about finding out the why why do you do this why why it happens and I found when you don't do that and you don't know the why what tends to happen is that you get a general principle to solve it go pray go read more but then that leasts the inadequate results not to say that none of that stuff doesn't work it's you never actually found out the reason and how does prayer and how does the Bible and how does all this stuff actually work like even read the Bible like well what am I going to read Leviticus like that's not yeah yeah right right it's finding those things so what I would love to hear from you is as you started to find that hope you mentioned something earlier about vulnerability and vulnerability playing a huge role in your recovery walk us through how did that actually play out yeah so uh it was in the first group that I led and I've told the story a couple of times um but I would just say kind of going into my first group I had handpicked 12 guys from the church who I knew would be committed who were interested who' expressed interest in being in the group man like that by itself the Lord showed up and in ways and that was super helpful for me even in my story I tell this story there was this guy that there was a a guy on staff uh at pure desire that I was trying to text to let him know hey man we're starting these groups I'm really excited why I texted the wrong guy same name wrong guy and he text me back and he's like sorry I think you texted the wrong person and I'm like oh my bad man I'll let you go like thanks and within seconds he text me back you know kind of a snarky sarcastic like well maybe someday I'll be cool enough for you to tell me what this is I'm like all right bro you want to know what this is here's what's up we're starting this group dealing with sexual addiction within three seconds he texts me back he's like I'm in it's been a problem for 25 years wow and so it's like the Lord's like having me send an accidental text to the wrong person to get this guy into group so it's just it was crazy and I would say even in that even the openness of hey and we're starting a group I think really invites people into that but for me that first group that I was in it was a six week group that we were going through a video series and we had decided that we're going to do our full disclosure just share our whole story each of us individually one guy a week and I had this one part of my story that I just I was taking in my grave no one else was going to know about it and it was just like me and God and maybe one other person um I had a same sex experience um with a guy when I was in that like 10 11 12 you know like exposure shame all that and to me I hadn't told anybody about that and um I remember sitting in that meeting room holding the piece of paper reading my story and I just started shaking because it's like I I'm so nervous I'm so afraid of rejection and um yeah I mean the Lord met me in that moment I can continued and you know told the story I get to the end of my full disclosure and two of the guys one of them turns to me the others across the table they both leay in and they're like me too man I have the same experience when I was a kid and I've described it in different ways and some people have made fun of me for it but I just I feel like on a hot day like what I felt in that moment is that cold water was just poured over my head and onto my shoulders like I just felt relief and the best way to describe it is I think the shame just started to DRP off yeah and man I can't tell you how integral that moment was into my own story because unless I was met with shared experience understanding and Grace I never would have told another Soul about that but and it's funny I hadn't even written this in my notes but years back I was asked to speak on there's a couple different passages in Scripture that talk about it but the idea of like burying one another's burdens and the lord gave me this just phrase that I have to share in order for you to Bear my burden that's so good it's just to share to share to bear like and the idea that in that moment with those guys if I didn't share that one piece of my story I wouldn't have had a healing Journey because I would have been holding on to one pocket one little sliver of my story there was just too much shame I couldn't trust anybody with it but because you know I think through the Lord's leading I was able to be um courageous in that moment uh and reminder like courageous is doing the right thing even when you're afraid courage is not void of fear it's full of it um I don't think that I would be where I'm at today if I hadn't have stepped out encouraged to be vulnerable and then was met with Grace an understanding and I just think too as I've continued in my own recovery Journey seeing that like listening to other people's vulnerability their story it brings so much Clarity to my own it's so much easier to see reality in someone else's story than your own and so when someone's sharing like oh you know when this happens and my kid pops off me and I get so upset this is why I get so angry and this is why I go there I'm just like oh dude me too whoa you know there's this like self-discovery that can happen when and you're listening to someone else share vulnerably so yeah for me vulnerability friends of mine people close to me have said it's a superpower of mine it's not a superpower it's just a muscle that I've developed over time because I've seen the value that it has for me and I've seen the way it can create pockets and cultures where true healing and transformation can happen because it can't happen without vulnerability yeah 100% man and you know even when you were talking about like share to Bear right and those people met with you I'm also thinking about all those guys that all of a sudden they opened up and they're like that's the first time they got that cold water port on them and they're just like someone understands and this is why I love doing the podcast is like let's just get that stuff out there like let's people need to know like it it happens and it's sinful it's wrong right like the things that happened right but like in it there's so much grace there's so much that God says regardless of what happened I'm going to be there to show you that I'm bigger than anything that's ever happened to you another thing too and this is I think important for people to hear uh a couple weeks later there was a guy who was in another one of the groups who for his entire he was um 50s 60s uh so an older guy no shame that 15 and 60 doesn't make you old it's just he's older than I was he asked me to go uh out to lunch and because he had heard that I had had this experience and that I shared my story he shared with me that he had struggled with same sex attraction for almost his whole life and sexually acting out and pornography and all of that what I realized in that moment is because those guys in my group responded so openly and with understanding to me like I had to do the same thing and I've just realized how we respond to others people vulner is so important because if we respond even with like a fraction of judgment or surprise or um just not Compassion or curiosity man it shuts people down and they may never share again and so I saw how my vulnerability and I was just doing what I thought was right I wasn't trying to change anybody's life or the culture I was just doing what I thought was my responsibility to being honest and I saw that it opened up other conversations and other people's vulnerability and so I would just say and it's something I may say again on our time it's just that own vulnerability can unlock healing for other people yeah 100% man I I I have found that in my life I mean when I was in Ministry quite regularly sharing my story of sexual abuse and healing I cannot tell you how many guys would text me or email like they wouldn't do it in front of the group but like they would text me or email me like I have the same story and they're like crying and like so many men who are like I've never shared this with someone and I remember I this is a story that I've shared in the podcast but I remember having a bad counselor who I shared my story with and this actually almost caused me to commit suicide because I I shared my story and then he just totally was like well I think you guys were bored he was trying to justify everything and I had that same moment where you were like I'm just sharing eye like dude I'm crying I got snot everywhere and it's just like miserable got the butterflies all the whole nine and I just remember thinking I went to this one Christian counselor and I was met with kind of like rejection or dejection a little bit I'm just like that's not what I needed I'm like if this guy can't help me no one can help me and I almost committed suicide if it wasn't for God intervening it I would have died that day you know and it was just a miracle that I'm here you know now 20 30 plus years later from that situation but I remember then when I was vulnerable with another counselor and he showed me like the grace and the mercy man I I remember this I remember when I shared my story I was like this guy's gon to reject me like old counselor did I look up and he's crying and he comes to me he just holds me and we had like a 45 minute cry session I like oh I'm like snotting all over his dress shirt and I'm just like but it was the first moment that I felt the relief of like I think I could beat this I uh you know one of the things the fun fact at the beginning about writing I have I have a book in me about uh and this is another I'm claiming my spot on another episode of your podcast because this is something we need to talk about is our discomfort with other people's pain and suffering causes us to try to find quick Solutions and often times that looks like I'm just trying to solve your problem but there's this ugly undercurrent of my discomfort is coming out and so I think of that first counselor who you know if there's a way that I can just Silverline this or I can wrap this into a pretty bow and just make sense of it super quick then we can just move on then we don't have to sit here in this mess when in reality all you needed was that dude to sit next to you for 45 minutes and embrace you and cry with you and just be with you and he didn't solve any problems but he unlocked something new just by doing that and so I I would I promise this book will be out in the world at some point but I think that topic needs to be addressed more is just that you know I think especially coming from religious and Christian circles like we try to keep things so clean and tidy when nothing about life is clean and tidy it is so messy and it is so and I um my wife it's actually it's in it's in our bathroom I if you've read Daye ortland book uh gentle and low and um the book talks Dane talks about how um you know God doesn't check in and out of our Brokenness like a hotel he takes up permanent residence there and something my I don't know I don't think my wife's doing a passive aggressive play or anything but she just has the book you know sitting in a basket and I've been thinking about that line dude the last few days like just that God's Not Afraid of how messy my life is he wants I mean For Crying Out Loud Like Jesus came down into the mess of humanity to show how much God wants to be present with us and I think that that's so important and we can't we can't lose that we can't lose the reality that life is messy and healing is messy and if we want to help other people or be a part of that process we're going to get it all over our hands there's no way around it yeah 100% man and that's where I love how you said it like God's in it he's in the mess and he want wants us to come to him to like yeah heal and and find recovery but we tend to hold ourselves back the picture I always see is the prodical son where the father is just running to him but like so many of us we see God the Father running towards us but we think he's going to run towards us with a fist or a hammer he's going to whip us and he's like no no I'm running to actually embrace you and support you and say hey I'm going to put a new robe on you I'm going to put a new necklace like I'm going to change you completely just let me come that's the perfect passage too I think Tim Keller says if scripture were a lake that uh Luke 15 is the one area of the lake so clear you can see all the way to the bottom and if you remember the prodigal son is rehearsing he's like thinking about okay how am I going to say this to my dad how am I going to you know like and what's so great is the Father's just like shut up already dude like let me just let talk you know and it's just it's so good you know and even in the season I'm in right now I'm dealing with a lot of Shame and struggle with uh a job loss and an unexpected transition I had a pastor of mine on Sunday actually this P week say to me that God doesn't need my gifts he just wants me the person and I'm like that sucks dude I'm like the prodigal son I'm like okay I'm going to say this and I'm going to do this and I'm going to earn that and I'm gonna get his favor I'm going to do all this stuff and man it takes conversations or moments like that where the Lord's like dude I don't I don't need any of that I'm just glad you're home come back in put the ring and the robe on you let's slay the calf let's just devour this food yeah let's not get too far off topic because Luke 15 we could just we're going yeah uh okay so let's get back on track a little bit but that was good that was that was a good tangent hopefully that would be blessing uh people there but um you know let's go back to something that you said earlier where our our accountability groups or groups we want to be vulnerable but what would you say to someone who is afraid to share their struggles out of fear of judgment or rejection yeah I mean here's the reality that is a learned reaction and this is just super unfortunate that we in moments of vulnerability we share and we get people who shame us shame on you how dare you how could you do something like that and you know dude I'll just say this my life is so different as a dad like being a parent you find yourself saying things like that with the right intentions oh but man it is so lacking the tactfulness you need as this you know preparer of This Heart The Shepherd of this small human being and so I think that that's where the fear comes from is you know whether it's you know a mentor or a spiritual leader or a parent who like you know I'm disappointed in you or you should be ashamed of yourself or whatever we learn that um the great irony is though is that shame can only be broken in relationship with other people shame breeds secrecy and secrecy means we run away from relationship and that just breeds more shame but the challenge with it is that without being open and honest with someone else you can't hear what I did in that first group me too thank you man for sharing so much man I've had the same experience or I had never thought of it that way before that's so good thank you for being honest we can never hear those if we're not willing to overcome that fear maybe that's not a right way to say I wouldn't even say overcome the fear it's in spite of it you still decide to do the thing the right thing if you come from a Christian background uh listener like I do I would have this thought often of I know God accepts me but I'm worried about his people yeah like I know like vertically like we're you know I've got some struggles but like Jesus came died on the cross for me Rose from the grave you know Romans 10:9 I confess with my mouth and I believe that he's Lord I'm good yeah but I'm afraid of his people and we often miss this reality uh and I think we miss this on both sides both is the person who's being vulnerable but then also the person who's receiving someone else's vulnerability is that the way that we receive God's love vertically is done in a horizontal plane relationship with other people and so without being vulnerable without sharing you can't have someone bear that burden or accept and acknowledge and come alongside you um I don't know about anybody else you know who might be listening but like I don't ever feel like God's just grabbed the joystick and put me on autopilot and like did stuff for me like he's in and through it and so powerful and capable but like I have agency here I have some responsibility I've got some skin in the game and so I think that we have to remember that the way God designed his love to be experienced on a tactile way is in relationship with his people and so yes have we been hurt by other people 100% but I do believe that because of God's love and acceptance and forgiveness of us we can have the courage to continue to be vulnerable with God's people and that's where we experience all of it yeah it's hard because there's not like a at least in my mind there's not a silver bullet of just do one two three and then there you go now you can be vulnerable forever it is it's never I would say this I I mentioned it earlier people look at me and think vulnerability is a superpower and like I said it's a muscle if you don't work out a muscle even if it's really big it's going to get flabby it's going to get weak over time you have to keep working it and yeah I think in different areas of your life no question I've gotten so used to being vulnerable about my sexual past that it's like okay cool that's easy it's like habit now but now let me go be vulnerable of a failure at work or let me go be vulnerable to my wife that I messed up on how I parented my kids that's we got to grow that muscle all the time right and I I think too just to kind of go back to what I said toward the beginning if you're on the other side where you're receiving someone's vulnerability again it makes our response so important like this is It's as if God is serving up on a plate for you here is an opportunity to be like me and to extend my love and acceptance to someone when someone's open and honest about some of the biggest stuff that they've struggled with or fears that they have or whatever man if if vulnerability gets shut down that's where shame is just like all right game time like I'm in it here we go and it just takes control so I think if you want to I don't know if looking at shame like a whack-a-mole game makes sense but if shame which this is good I'm going to run with this if shame is the wack-a-mole game then the club that you're holding in your hand is vulnerability it's what keeps it away it's what gets it out it's what allows you to to heal and move forward and succeed in life truly yeah you know I'm thinking that is a great analogy by the way I like it thank you if not you can totally cut it we just move I I liked it I was like oh yeah yeah I'm catching it well maybe it's just you and I are like-minded that we're like yeah that's awesome you know yeah yeah if you don't like that analogy then you know post a review tell Kenny's doing a terrible job and let's you know move on you could email me at Trevor there you go but you know I love how you said it like people can't see the expression of God's love without the people of God right and I thought about first John 4:12 where it says no one has ever seen God but if we love one another this is my favorite part about this passage when I saw this it like open my eyes God abides in us and his love is perfected in us another translation says his love is complete in us and it's like if you want to see the full expression the full completeness of God's love you have to be vulnerable like you have to go do that um okay so for people right let's get practical for some of them of like oh my gosh I need practical steps to embrace vulnerability I get it I need to be vulnerable that's the secret to finding Victory and freedom what would be some tips that you would uh give people when it comes to opening up yeah I think the first thing that came to mind was start small um to not just be like okay bro sit down I've got a lot for you and then just vomit you know like 30 years of struggle and Challenge and whatever like you know maybe it's um starting small is like you start to share a little bit on where you're leaning on this political cycle who I'm going to vote for maybe that's huge trigger but something like that or like a fear you've been experiencing or a doubt that you have or a challenge you're facing in parenting or in relationships or marriage like something small don't bring out the Bazooka and then blow the person away with just the whole chamber ease into it I I think with that though finding one two maybe like a Max of three people that are trusted that you love that you have good relationship with and feel safe to you and invite them into that ask them if they'd be willing to be people who you can share openly and honestly with you know there's this idea floating around I've heard Matt Chandler who's the pastor at The Village Church in Texas talking about something called The King's table and it's finding people who you do life with who you see multiple times a week who you meet on a regular basis and are sharing about your life and everyone has the ability and the permission to just blow you up if you're messing it like if you say something about your wife and it's off then one of those people can just be like dude that's not cool back it up let's talk about that for a minute yeah it's basically like opening your vest and iding people in to see what's going on I think start small pick a few people and then honestly it seems so silly but I've seen so much power in this it's just asking permission can I share something vulnerably with you and I'll tell you why that has been meaningful and Powerful in my experience if I just am sitting down can you and I are you know new friends if we go um and are having coffee which we never would cuz we live too far away but if we were grabbing coffee and I was just like can I have an affair you know and I just throw it on the table and it is just this big messy smelly thing that you weren't prepared for I can't expect you to respond super well doesn't matter how trained you are doesn't matter how many conversations like that you've had it puts you on a backpedal but if we sit down we get our coffee uh or let's be honest if we get our cocktails CU that's probably where this conversation shouldn't be happening and mine would be an oldfashioned with uh Wild Turkey 101 anyways we're sitting down and I say can I share something vulnerable with you can I be honest with you about something what that does is it sets kind of an emotional stage for you where that kind of almost diffuses any bomb before it could go off or like sets you in a posture of like okay this could be big all right get ready okay I can respond well I can do this and here what's great is if the person you're with says no actually I don't want you to then great they don't need to be a safe person that you spend time with but if they say yeah man absolutely go for it and you share it I've just seen a lot of fruit come from that that it allows the person to mentally prepare and get into that head space it shows that it's important and serious to you and I think obviously as you're being vulnerable that just creates more ability for both of you to have that kind of relationship so I think that that's really important the last thing I'd say and I've said this already a couple of times but the only way to get comfortable or better at vulnerability is to be vulnerable I've talked about being a muscle I started doing CrossFit six months ago and if I want to get fit and if I want to lose weight and I want to build muscle I have to consistently do the workouts and uh do they hurt yeah like at the end are they great totally but if I were to stop today and not work out for the next 6 months I can't expect that I would get stronger over the next six months I would get weaker over the next six months and the same thing's true with vulnerability the only way to keep getting better and to keep getting more and more comfortable doing it is to keep doing it you build that muscle up and you have to maintain it yeah and I think one of the cool benefits I'll end with this the cool benefits about vulnerability is the more vulnerable you are the more vulnerability it breeds around you you'll see I I promise you the more vulnerable you are you will see people around you start to open up and share stuff I was telling a mentor of mine just yesterday one of the things I hear more often from people than I can even count is I can't believe I just told you that I hear that all the time it's not because I've got this shovel and I'm just digging for gold I am just a vulnerable person that tends to share openly about my experience I'm not really afraid anymore of of judgment now depends on who it is but I can be pretty open and honest with people and that openness that Honesty tends to get people in that same space whether they intended to or not now again if someone says I can't believe I just told you that please don't tell anyone protect confidentiality that's super important but at the same time you will see people start to share openly because you doing it gives them permission to do it and you responding well when they're vulnerable back to you it grows like weeds it just cannot stop once it's there yeah I love that man and you're totally right like I think about all the people that are around me they just start sharing stuff but that's because I've opened it up of like here here's where I'm at here's what I'm struggling with from Little Things yeah yeah but then I I love how you said that you're also a safe person because if it's confidential you're keeping it to the grave no one knows totally the other person's secret you're a great sounding board for that person I love it man uh Trevor as we wrap up you've been given a lot of great thoughts here and we've been talking a lot about vulnerability within accountability like an accountability group being in person there are certain times that vulnerability isn't enough so let's just quickly run through before the show we talked about vulnerability versus therapy there are times that we do need to address going to just talking to your friends may not be the best time what advice would you give for someone who just is like I feel stuck but despite seeing a therapist you know that they need it but they also need vulnerability yeah uh I mean my first thought was like well if you have a therapist ask them their opinion they're a great resource for that just like hey therapist what should I do but I mean even as I was I was reading the question man I think that if you're seeing a therapist and you feel stuck to me that says you are not being honest in these different areas of your life that you're not practicing vulnerability the way I thought about this is like you pay a therapist to be this third party or your insurance Lord willing pays this therapist to listen to you to help you they come alongside zero judgment for you it's because they're not invested in your life other than as your therapist where your friends your spouse your family they are there's fear that well I can't pay these people to not respond negatively but I think that that's again here's my experience when I am not being honest and vulnerable in my community with my friends with my spouse with my family to me that makes me feel like I'm walking on eggshells and makes me uncomfortable and makes me nervous and honestly makes not fun at all to be around and that discomfort what's funny is it feels like that discomfort is actually fear of being vulnerable and it's not it's the discomfort of not being vulnerable it's the fear of like what do I have to say here to keep the secret of the facade up or like it's this inner like dissonance your feeling between reality and what other people know and the only way to break free of that is to let people in and show them what's up you have to and so yeah if that's where you're at if you have a therapist you've been doing the work you can't seem to break free my question is who are you not telling or being honest with that you should be because I think once honesty and vulnerability happens it feels like a a weighted vest comes off and you walk around lighter doesn't mean there aren't consequences to that vulnerability or difficulty or Challen facing difficulty or challenge when you're you know 100 pounds lighter is a whole lot easier than continuing to dig yourself deeper and deeper putting more and more shame on yourself and hoping to God you don't get caught that's a miserable existence yeah and I've had those situations where I'm like I'm going to be vulnerable and it's going to be good but it's also going to be really hard because now there's consequences to what I just shared right y but what I have found is that God's Grace has been there for me and I've came out a better person more lighter more Freer more full of joy it just changes the dynamic because we're not hiding things every time I've counseled guys one question I ask is like you just shared this story is there anything else that you're afraid to share that like now's the moment that you would want to you know because what can happen is that you share part of your story and you're like oh I feel a little bit of freedom but there's always this little thing and time and time again of Shame a sliver of Shame and that's where the Devil comes in and I've told guys don't let that sliver come in this is a perfect moment you've opened up one step let's let's take another step let's take another step let's keep going because you'll see like when you get that whole thing out like the enemy doesn't have power like it's gone it's the whole idea of the foothold the foothold is gone and then you could go Trevor man we both know we could keep talking and keep going on this topic but any final thoughts for those guys who are truly struggling and they're like dude I'm with you I know I need this help any last yeah kind of final thoughts yeah I mean again I think picking you know one maybe two people that you know are safe or that you feel secure with I think are that's like the first thing to do and maybe one of those people is your therapist that's great dude like it's better than just continuing to drive the car when you know it's a mess just take it into a mechanic but therapist is a mechanic for your soul just take them in so I really do think practically just find one to two people that you can be honest with that you can share and you start practicing do that's the way you get better uh and what's cool is the more you practice a vulnerability the better you are at dismissing shame when it pops its head up and you know go back to it like you know use the hammer of vulnerability to like keep shame down and I I I can't speak more highly of communities that are characterized by vulnerability and openness those are the healthiest ones and if you want to be a healthy person and you want to be in a healthy culture or create a healthy culture and it starts with being open and honest and vulnerable and doing it in a safe community and honestly dude that's how I think the church is going to change the world I think the church doesn't change the world just by pontificating about biblical truth Tru I think as you said earlier from John that when we're embodying what it looks like to be like Jesus to sit in the mess and muck and to say thanks for sharing we're so sorry how can we help you in this season that's how we change the world I love it man Trevor for those of you people who were like Trevor's awesome he's way smarter than Ken which is partly true yeah they're like half and half depending on the day sure but if they're like man I really enjoy Trevor I really enjoy his insights what's the best way to follow you dude for real I'm not on any of the socials linkedin's the only place I am uh just Trevor Windsor and you can put that in your show notes if you want uh yeah social media is not the place for me I like being off that stuff but yeah I mean for a long time was a part of pure desire Ministry and was the host of that podcast and I would you say if you want more stuff on recovery sexual addiction that kind of stuff even the other side of betrayal trauma just go check check out the pure desire podcast hook up with them but yeah man they don't need connection with me if you want to put my email on the show notes they can they can reach out yeah I'm just a dude who's trying to do the right thing dayto day and and hope I change the culture around me awesome Trevor thank you so much and for those of you who are listening I want you to just take one thing that Trevor said he's given a lot of great nuggets but take one thing and say you know what I'm going to take a step forward find that one person that you know that I could just share a baby step with right uh with that I want you guys to keep doing what I say every single time at the end of the episode kill shame stand strong and beond Mission hope you guys have a great day and God bless thanks for joining us today if you found this episode helpful make sure to subscribe and leave a review remember killing shame isn't just about breaking free from the past it's about walking boldly into the future God has for you