I Was a Christian Therapist Addicted to Psychiatric Medications: Here’s What Finally Set Me Free

Transcript

Welcome to the Shameless Podcast, where I help Christian men kill shame, stand strong, and live on mission. I'm your host, Ken P, and I'm bringing you real stories, practical insights, and biblical truths that equip you to break free from your sin, shame, and live a life of purpose. Let's step out of the shadows together and into the light of Christ. What happens when the man others go to for healing is the one silently falling apart? What if the Christian counselor or therapist who gives hope is drowning in addiction?

And what if behind that addiction is something darker he swore he'd never speak of? Today's guest, Dr. Mark McNair was a respected therapist and believer, but his double life brought him to the edge. This is a story of what finally set him free. Dr. Mark, thank you for coming on the show. So glad to have you here today. Ken, how are you doing today, man? I'm doing great. The day of recording is a beautiful, beautiful day here in Nashville, Tennessee. Nashville. I'm enjoying it. Yeah, I'm in New Jersey and it's really sunny here, too.

Oh, perfect. I I don't know if you knew this. I was born and raised in New York City. I did not know that. Yeah. So, you and we're like cousins at this point. Yeah. And I've been in Nashville many, many times. I love Nashville. I love it. Well, Dr. Mark, you know, you talked about when you have a book out and we'll talk quite a bit about the book today, but one of the things that I resonated with you was your story of wanting to just hide so much.

And there's so many men who want to hide their story and what actually has happened to them. So I want to start with the image of what people had of you, a successful therapist, a Christian man, but what was actually going on behind the scenes? Well, and I that's a great question. I talk about that in the book, the idea that I was taking tons of medication to be able to kind of outrun my childhood. And so, uh, one of the things I talk about the book is I was sadly emotionally abusive to my family and had a lot of mood swings and was taking, as I said, a lot of prescriptions and uh, abusing those prescriptions.

And it seemed like the more I took, the more I needed to be able to rise to some level of I'm going to say normal. wasn't normal, but it was I had so much pain inside from my childhood and just didn't know how to deal with it. And as you said, there's things that I was not comfortable talking about with anyone. And so that changed about 10 years ago. When you started to take all the medication and stuff like that, what was kind of the excuses or the justifications that you were making to say, "Yes, I could keep going this farther." knowing from your background that you're probably addicting or getting addicted to it.

You know, I don't I don't know if I knew that I was addict addicted to it. I think that that's that's the funny thing with addictions or the ironic thing. They lie to you and tell you there's no problem there, you know. And so I think what it was is I got diagnosed with so many different things. I was struggling with ADHD. I don't even think I have ADHD, but I got diagnosed with it. you know, got diagnosed with anxiety disorder, got diagnosed with depression, and so all of the medications were prescribed to help me to function.

And so I would begin to take one and so things worked out pretty well, so why not take two? And so, you know, justified it in the fact that I never felt good. like my body was always so uptight, my mood was always so off that I think that for me was okay, I'm going to do this because it helps me to function. Yeah. So, how your family cuz you know they're seeing all this and they're being affected from it. How do they handle you or manage during these mood swings?

Yeah, I think that they distanced from me. I mentioned in the book my daughter Emily traveled to Florida and moved down there for a while. Debbie was busy, my wife was busy with her career with teaching and so I think that there was just this thing of leave him alone because you know my mood was not good and because I just wasn't functioning. I wasn't going to things that they were going to. So I kind of separated from them and by virtue of that I think they just separated from me.

How did you feel when they started doing that? Cuz I could see like, you know, when separation starts happening, there's a lot of shame in that. There's shame in you trying to cope with everything that you're going through. How did you just start to handle all of those negative emotions? Yeah, that that's a good question and also a hard question. I think that it just made me go more into my addiction. And there was part of me that said, "What's the matter with them?" But there was there was a bigger part probably that was saying like, "What's the matter with you?

Why? Why can't you be there? I know there's a lot of men who probably feel that same way. So, can you talk a little bit more about that? They feel that negative emotion of just like, "Wow, I know I should be doing better, but I can't and I'm not putting myself in the right position." Yeah, that's a great point. I think that, you know, I I just didn't feel well. I was so traumatized from my childhood. And interestingly enough, you know, I had all of these diagnosis, but nobody came to me and said, I think you've been really traumatized.

And so, you know, I always felt like there was something wrong with me from childhood and from the way that I was treated, things like that. And so, I think I carried that with me and just felt like there was just this heaviness saying like, "What's the matter with you? you know, whether it's something that I was doing or just who I was, you know, there was this just I was draped in shame. Didn't know it back then, but just draped in shame of there's something wrong with you.

What were the signs that when you started to recognize that, man, something is wrong with you and like things are not okay? Well, I I had a real wakeup call from a psychiatrist. I called the psychiatrist for refills and it was way too early. And so she did the math quickly and came to the conclusion that I was getting addicted to certain medications that I was on. And so she flat out said, you know, you need to go to rehab. So I I'd like to say I I had this like real awareness, but no, it was her pointing out to me, you need help.

And so right after that, I I can remember being upstairs in my house and thinking to myself like, "Oh no, what do I do?" And I knew I needed to go and so reality started to really hit. And and with that, did you say, "Yeah, I'm going to do it." Or did you like take a few months to like justify it? Oh, no. No, no. I need I need Ken. I needed to go for help. There was no negotiating that because I was in withdrawal from not having enough of the medication and so I needed to do something very quickly.

Okay. So you were like, "Hey, I'm going to go to rehab." When you started to go to rehab, I'm curious, your family has been seeing you go through this crazy journey. How did they view you and how did you view them or the perception of now you're the man, right? You're the one who's supposed to be the therapist, but now you're going to rehab. Yeah. I'm sure there's a lot of shame there that kind of was involved. I'm just curious, how did your family feel? And how did you feel about that whole situation?

That's a that's a a great question. You know, I was dripping with shame. That's how I would put it. Like I was covered it. And so my wife was at school teaching and so I knew that she'd be home around 3:30. And so she came home and I mustered up the confidence and courage to be able to say to her, "I need to go to rehab." I talked with the doctor and she said that I'm addicted and need to get um off the medication and into rehab.

And so Debbie was like phenomenal with it. She was so kind, so loving, and and just said, "You know what? We're gonna get through this together." And so that was like so healing. It wasn't like, well, I knew this all along or anything like that. It was like, you know what? You're really hurting. I see it and this is going to be a new start for us. And so I remember and then I had to contact my daughter and I mentioned she was in Florida and I remember texting Emily and saying to her that I had had the conversation with the doctor and the doctor recommended rehab and she just wrote back, I am so proud of you.

Wow. I'm sure that was probably beginning of the healing and also the grace that was being delivered to you. Absolutely. It was um an answer to a prayer that I didn't ask for. You know, I know a lot of guys who they have been afraid and I've had guests on the podcast who have told me that when they've shared these deep vulnerable struggles or sin or weaknesses that they've had that like the people they share with have rejected them and that's what a lot of men are afraid of.

Dr. Mark, I'm just curious if you were concerned about that or in your time of practice, have you encountered that? Oh, yeah. all the time. And so I've seen it, you know, spouses, I've seen it with family members understandably, just really struggling and distancing and not wanting to be a part of it. And so I have to tell you that there was a sense in my mind of this is God stepping in. And there was a part of me, not all of me, but there was a part of me that just felt this is going to be okay.

You know, I knew Debbie and I knew the person she was. And so, um, while it felt really good, there was a part of me that knew that she would enter into this with me with grace. M. So it sounds like for those who are struggling right now, one of the key foundational pillars for you was having that support system. Mhm. You had it from your wife, your child, other guys. And I think I had an ultimatum, too. You know, you need, you know what I wasn't only like, you know, you've really suffered and you've really struggled, but it was also you need to take action with this.

Yeah. From a professional standpoint, how did that affect your career? Well, that that's a great question. Uh, radically because I knew I was going to rehab. Wasn't comfortable at that time. I wasn't seeing that many patients because I wasn't functioning that well. But the patients that I that that I was seeing, I remember Debbie and I scripting a voicemail to put on my office um phone and also on my cell phone just saying that there was a medical issue that needed to be dealt with and that I would be out of the office for undetermined amount of time.

And so, you know, Ken, I had no idea how long it was going to take. I know it's taken a lot longer than I ever dreamt. There was a part of me that was like, you know what, I'll just go get it over with in a couple months and then go right back to practice. But I wasn't able to. Like, I was in too uh out of shape. I wasn't functioning and really struggling with emotions and with the past that I never had dealt with before.

And so actually it was two years from the time that I went to rehab that I entered back into practice. Okay. Wow. For a lot of people that's like a new life. That's a long time. Yeah. So walk us through when you decided to finally go into rehab. You start to go through it. What were some of the other thoughts that were going through your mind like besides like, hey, this should be a few months. Walk us through your journey there. Well, I I went into rehab and it was like a culture shock.

you know, I was the patient and so I was feeling terrible and the medication was going out of my system and so that was a struggle in and of itself. And then on top of that, I had all of these memories bombarding me from childhood, things that had happened to me. And so that was part of the journey is I wasn't I didn't feel safe enough to talk to people at rehab about it. Like they, you know, big part of it was tell your story. And I knew that my story was so strange in so many ways that I wasn't getting comfortable talking about it.

You know, for example, when I was four years old, my dad had forced me to eat carrots. I ended up getting sick and so started crying and ended up throwing up and he picked me up and he threw me in the garbage. And so like I wasn't ready to verbalize these things. I thought about them over and over. thought about the sexual abuse over and over again, but just felt like I can't tell anybody this stuff, you know, and and so it wasn't until I got home and started my healing journey from my healing journey in rehab that I started to feel comfortable to talk about some of these things.

Okay. Okay. So, rehab, you kind of like kicked the medication a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And and got in a good routine, you know, getting up at the right time, going to bed at the right time, being around tons of people, which was a culture shock because I was really isolated toward the end. And so, you know, each part of it, I could see God in each part of my journey. It was kind of like, well, okay, this isn't going to be yet, but then this is going to come.

And then, all right, so I'm going to go into IOP, intensive outpatient treatment. Then I'm going to go into individual counseling. And then from there, I'm going to start working on the addictions. I was going to 12step meetings. And so, it was interesting. God showed up each step of the way. And like things that I'm doing now, even in treatment for myself, I could have never done back then. It would have been just too much for me to take. Yeah. So, there's a couple directions we want to take this, but the first one I want to talk about is you had to get to a place where you felt safe enough to share your story.

And I know that there's a lot of guys, and you've seen the statistics, Dr. Mark, you and I both have victims of child sexual abuse, but like one out of every four men have been sexually abused, right? So, there's a ton of men I I do this all the time. Whenever I'm in a room with like a hundred men, I give them that statistic. So, I'm like, "So, I know at least 25 of you are going to resonate with this, but you would never tell a soul." Right.

Right. How do you get them to a place where they feel safe to share their story? Well, I think that I can first speak for myself. It was incremental. It was step little steps by little step by little step and being able to even tolerate it in my body to be able to talk about this stuff. And then, you know, I had so many great people around me that helped me with that, you know, that I would share like a little piece here, a little piece there.

And so, it wasn't all at once. And I can remember there was a a guy I call him Bren Brennan in the book and he uh he was a believer and he and I got to be very close and and I shared with him just a little bit and he was safe and we're friends to this day 10 years later we're really good friends and he said to me you know what I know you don't feel comfortable talking about it here but when you get out you need to find some safe people to be able to talk to about it.

And so I'd like to tell you that it went from one to 100 and in a few weeks it took me a long time to be able to talk about a lot of this stuff. Yeah. What was the like I know for me and this it's different for everybody. Yeah. But you know when you start to share little pieces of information you find a little bit of freedom, right? You're like oh I share this, I share this. But there's always that one like leverage one like I shared this piece and all of a sudden like the avalanche of God's grace started to fall for you.

Did you have that same moment and if so what was that moment? You know I think that again I would use the word uh incremental you know it was there was so much trauma in my childhood and so many strange things happened that that it was all right I'm going to trust this person with this one thing not even knowing that that's what I was thinking and you know, there would be a really warm reception and then I would take the next step to share another thing with my wife Debbie.

I started sharing stuff with her that I had never shared with anyone. And again, she showed up and was safe and holding it for me and and and being understanding and she knew my family background. And so I think a lot of it didn't surprise her. And so it was the ability to be able to share one step at a time. You know, a lot of times we just and maybe some people do, but like just blurted it all out, but like for me, I couldn't do that.

Yeah. Okay. So all the incremental changes, uh I know that during your book, and by the way, we haven't even named the name of your book. Tell me, I believe it's correct. It's finding my words of ruthless commitment to healing gently after child trauma. After trauma. Yeah, you got it. Okay. So, I know in part of the book you talked about a time and I I really want to hone in on this where you you've talked so far about how God has been with you, but there was a time where you felt like God wasn't with you in this process.

And I know a lot of people who have felt this way where they're like, "Yeah, God, are you even here and they feel completely abandoned and desolate?" And if we're honest, I think for a lot of people of abuse survivors, they that's something a temptation that the enemy will always try to mess with us is like God's not there. God's not with you. Walk us through and tell us a little bit about that kind of journey in your life. Sure. I I think that for me the idea and I agree with you 100% that the idea that my dad wasn't there for me you know and so I think I carried that over to God in a lot of ways and I knew the theology and I knew the verses but it's like when you've messed up as badly as I had done how would he be there for me that was what I felt but as I stepped out in faith and did things, put one foot in front of the other, he would show up.

And he's still doing that to this day. And it was just amazing to see that there were times when I didn't step forward and he was still there. And there was times when I felt like I felt right on my face and he was still there. So there was a there's an article that I wrote for the Christian Post and it it was about you know is there grace after salvation and in the article I talk about the fact that absolutely like yeah our stories are no surprise to God.

What we have been through is no surprise to God. And he is ready and waiting to come alongside us with grace and mercy and with his wonderful unconditional love. Yeah. Amen. And that is a big part of the story, right? That is your story of how God just graciously comes through and and heals you. And I remember if I'm correct in one part you felt like Jesus had asked you like, "Do you want to get well?" Yes. Right. you're going through this healing journey and you're like, do you actually want to get well?

Which is huge cuz I I remember I've done quite a bit of late counseling in this area and I'm just kind of like, do you even want to change? Do you want to get well? And it's surprising that sometimes people are like, no, they like being in this stage. And I talk about I talk about in the book end that it would have been a maybe a much better book if if I was able to say, you know, like he showed up and I was like, "Yeah, let's go." But I was like, "Not sure." Yeah.

So, again, he shows up where we're at and takes us from there. And that's one of the things that I have and I'm still learning is trying to be real, trying to be honest, trying to be straightforward and be like, I'm I'm just really struggling. Like, I need your help. I really need your help. Yeah. So, when he asked you that and you're like, I'm not sure. and he's walking you through these baby steps. When was the moment when you're like, "Yeah, God, I want to get well." You know, I think it was step by step by step of Ken saying, "Okay, well, I'm willing to do this, but I'm not doing that." So, so I would do this and then would cause me to move forward and be ready to do something else that I had put restrictions on.

You know, it's like I'm not talking about some of these things. Like I I'm not talking about them. I hardly talk about them with myself. I repressed them for years and years. I'm not talking about them with anybody else. And then as I found more freedom, I was able to talk about more and able to reach out and get the support that I needed. Praise God. And isn't that beautiful where it's like we know God requires 100% obedience and at the same time he's so gracious to us knowing that like we're never going to get there.

We're never going to be perfect at it. Yeah. And he's so gracious in the fact that he's just like, "Oh, I know Mark is not going to give me 100%. He's only maybe going to give me 10%." Yeah. And he's still going to guide you. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that we tell ourselves we have to do this thing perfectly. Yeah. And there's no such thing as perfect. It's showing up each day the best that we can and allowing his grace to fill in the gaps.

And there's a lot of gaps in my life still, but there's not as many. There's not as much fragmentation. There's not as much confusion as there was 10 years ago. Yeah. And even as you're talking about that, I think about God's grace and even the story about you sharing about your dad throwing you in the trash, right? Like for a lot of men and a lot of people who have been abused, they they feel like they're trash. They're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm trash. I'm worthless.

Your dad is now trying to he's given you a physical representation of this." But God, our father, he's like, "Hey, it's interesting that he didn't treat you and he doesn't treat us harshly." Yeah, it was so gracious. Yeah, I love I love that verse in in Ephesians where it talks about we are his handiwork or we are his masterpiece or in the Greek it's you know we are his poem his poem that he's writing with us. So I think a lot of times we put all of these restrictions on him.

We say I have to do this perfectly. I have to and he's like show up. You know there were so many times Ken and there still are so many times when he shows up like he did with the prodical son and that is healing for me in and of itself. How talk a little bit more about that. I'm curious, how does that and scripture, how did scripture move you from something you taught to something that started to actually heal you? Yeah. It started to come alive.

Yeah. I found that I wasn't putting into this relationship with him my preconceived notions. I I was allowing him again to show up and show me who he was. I think that as a result of that, well, I know as a result of that, I saw scripture clearer. I saw the love of the father. I saw that he wasn't there to condemn, but that he was there to come alongside me and to write this story, this messy, messy story with me and, you know, really take ashes and turn it into beauty.

Yeah. it for you during that season of him taking you from ashes to beauty. I know it can be hard but so beautiful and for you I'm wondering uh like as you were going through it what was like a beautiful memory that you just go back to that God was like becoming a father to you and saying hey I'm healing this father wound that you have and I'm showing you that I'm your father now you know I I oftentimes show up uptight, you know, and especially when I make mistakes and through other people and through seeing him more clearly, you know, it helped me to realize that I don't have to worry about these mistakes, that he's aware of them.

You know, I'm going to do my best, but I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to sin every day, but he's still there. caring Jesus as my advocate and I'm sealed as a you know scripture talks about I'm sealed to the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit and so I'm safe in him. you know, the key for me or one of one of the keys I would say is I needed to start feeling safe in my body and that took, you know, a long long time for me.

But now, uh, I'm really grateful because I can show up and help other people to learn how to do that for themselves. Yeah. So, when you use that term in your in my body, you know, a lot of people could take that a thousand different ways. What do you mean by that? Well, I this is one of the things I I teach clients. There's this window of tolerance. And so there's the red zone and then there's the green zone and then there's the blue zone. And the red zone is hyperaroused where you're anxious or angry or irritable or cranky.

A lot of energy just like a lot of feelings of being uptight. and flip side of it, go from the red to the blue, hypoaroused where you're scrolling on your phone, want to go to bed, want to withdraw, just hide, isolate. And so it's that idea of not being too much in the red zone, too much in the blue zone, but being more in the green zone. And that takes a relaxed body. And so finding ways, you know, whether it's walking or exercise or whether it's breathing or coloring or doing things with your body to help relax your body.

You know, for me, I think um one of the things that has helped me the most, I'm trying to remember the the passage. I believe it's Psalms 36:4 where it says, "In that light you shall see light." So, when I was thinking about your blue zone, red zone, I know when I feel like I'm trying to take control over everything, I'm in the red zone because I'm so hypervigilant. I'm like, what's going on? I start to get anxious. And when I fail controlling the things I feel like I should be able to control, which is just an illusion, right?

I hit the blue zone and I just want to escape and I want to withdraw. I'm like, I'm going to binge Netflix. I'm going to do all these things. Yeah. Would I? Go ahead. Go for it. Go for it. No. No, I was just going to say even you talking about that, it's exciting for me to hear you talk about it because it's like, yeah, I can name these things. Yes. Exactly. And in those naming of those things, what I have found for me personally is that with those aspects, both of them, I've realized that I'm looking to myself Yeah.

for a solution. Mhm. And when I flipped it and I said like going back to Psalms 36:4 where it says in that light you shall see light. It's like, "Oh, wait a minute. When I look at God, the father of light, and I'm just focused on him, he's going to show me the right way. He's going to show me how to get to that green zone of like, oh, this is the way you should be thinking. This is the way you should be living. This is the way I see you." And man, all of a sudden, there's there's a ton of healing.

I say because I'm curious, do Dr. Mark, would you one agree with that and two be like, yes, this is ultimately how we need to move from our self and move our eyes towards God to kind of shape our lives and help us see how to be better and walk in grace. Yeah, I I think that it's twofolded and I I agree with you 100%. I think we have to do the work, you know, and not control the situation, not try to control each part of it, but showing up more emotionally regulated, you know, if I'm in the red zone, I'm not seeing God.

Clearly, if I'm in the blue zone, I'm not seeing God. So, how can I and it's different for everyone. What kind of tools can I use to just slow my body down or what activities do I need to do to kind of get out of that binging on Netflix, you know? So, I teach clients ways to tend to their body so that they can show up better for themselves and for, you know, their family and friends. Does that make sense or Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. Give the guys who are listening to this some practical tips on like what might be some of those tools that they may need.

Like say a guy's coming like I'm binging through Netflix, but I know that when I start binging through Netflix, I'm going to end up watching pornography cuz you know it's a slippery slope. Yeah. So, so first thing we already did and that is kind of identify these three states or these three areas that we might be in. From there, you know, sometimes you have to get your body moving and sometimes you have to slow your body down doing things like breathing, like walking, like exercise. You know, I have a a coach that talks about crazy things have happened to us.

So, we kind of have to do crazy things to get out of it. So, an example, you know, to kind of step out of my comfort zone, I was talking to him and he said, you know, I'm going to give you a recommendation. Sometimes you have to just be daring with this stuff. So, I'm like, what is that? And he was like, you know, I want you to consider getting into jiu-jitsu. And I love it. Yeah. Brazilian jiu-jitsu. And so, I signed up for it. I found somebody and I signed up for it.

And being somebody who was sexually abused, it has been so good to me because I'm getting more in touch with my body, feeling getting close to another guy, being able to tolerate that and also have safety to be able to tap to be able to say I need space. Yeah, absolutely. How long have you been doing it for now? I've only been doing it for a couple months, but I'm really excited and really enjoying it. So, you know, for the guys listening, I would say, you know, experiment with things.

You know, maybe coloring. I I've done a lot of coloring. I have done a lot with colored pencils. I've done a lot with breathing. I have done EMDR, eye movement desensitization, and reprocessing to kind of process some of the trauma that I've had, you know. So, uh, story work has been really important to me. You know, being able to and being willing to step out of your comfort zone to do things that maybe you never dreamt of doing before. Yeah. Uh, Dr. Mark, one, I'm excited you're doing uh, jiu-jitsu.

I've been doing it for eight and a half years at the time. That's awesome. So, that's awesome. I get it. And for, you know, it's interesting. I never would have thought about this till probably a few years ago. Uh, I was actually counseling someone and they were asking me like, "Why are you more confident now than, you know, five years ago?" And I'm like, "Oh, well, of course I've been in my sanctification journey." But I think for a lot of men who have been abused, at least for me, one of the things that I I remember is when you feel like such a victim and especially as a child, you don't feel like you have control over anything and you feel like anybody could hurt you.

when jiu-jitsu taught me that, hey, I could control and I could maintain someone and I could manage that, I felt like I I had that manhood card given back to me. Yeah. And and and it's interesting because Vessel Vanderook, the uh psychiatrist that wrote The Body Keeps the Score, one of the one of the most well-known books, talks about that in there. He talks about, you know, jiu-jitsu gives you a sense of safety. It gives you a sense of agency. It gives you all of these different things where you begin to carry your body and there's safety in that.

Just being able to feel more comfortable and know you can protect yourself. Yeah, 100%. And and and you know, coming from a Christian worldview, I'm like I have a sense of agency that I could protect myself knowing that God is still sovereign and he's the one who ultimately controls things. So there's like this both that I'm like, okay, yeah, I know someone could come tomorrow with a gun and shoot me. like I have no like that's just is not going to help with that if there's enough distance, right?

Like I can't do that. But I know God's in control and and walking through this. So I'm curious as we wrap up here, Dr. Mark, it sounds like I hear a couple things. If you are either in the green zone or in the blue zone or sorry, in the red zone or in the blue zone, right? You're using these tools like jiu-jitsu or something like that to regulate and get to a place where you can breathe so that you can get your mind focused on God and then God is ultimately healing you.

That's kind of what I'm and I and I think that you know for so many people who have been abused the body becomes the enemy you know we kind of disassociate from it or push away and that's what porn use is all about disassociating and and not being present. And so, you know, finding ways to become more alive, you know, Jesus said that he's come that we might have an abundant life, you know, and so all addictions do is make your life very, very small. And so, stepping out of that and to be able to say like if you would have told me 10 years ago I'd be doing jiu-jitsu, I'd say like, Ken, you are absolutely crazy.

But, you know, that's the step by step and showing up and doing different things. I I think that's that idea. There's always that tension. You know, if you want a hole in your backyard, you know, a hole in the ground, you need to pray about it, but then you also need to bring a shovel. Yeah. You know, there's a part that God does, but there's also a part that we have to step into and be willing to participate. Yeah. And that's the part where most guys have the hardest time stepping in.

And I think one of the reasons they have a hard time stepping stepping into it is they feel disqualified. So can you talk to that guy? Yeah, that's so good. And one of the verses that I absolutely love and I carry with me is it's the kindness of God that leads to change or it's the kindness of God that leads to and you know uh Jay Stringer I had done some intensives with Jay and you know he shared that verse with me and it's like it became alive in a real way and so yeah when we've not been treated well we tend to treat ourselves in a harsh way and so Yeah.

Showing up and treating yourself well with kindness. I think that that's part of the journey. Yeah. So, so Mark, for for guys who are listening to this and as we wrap up, they feel disqualified. You are just sharing with them like it's okay. It's God's kindness that leads us to change. And he doesn't disqualify you. Like he's going to restore you. He's going to change you. He's going to help you become the man that he's called you to be. like you said in Ephesians 2:10, are he's our workmanship.

We are his workmanship, the masterpiece. For those guys who are listening to this and they're like, I resonate with this and Mark, I'm in the red zone or I'm in the blue zone and I need help. Uh, I know you have some coaching services that you can provide. What's the best way they can reach out to you so that they can hear more about what you do? Yeah, they can go to my website which is www.mmarkmcneer.com and there's a place where they can contact me there.

And I would say though in wrapping up, this is one thing that I would challenge guys that are listening to this to do, and that's just find one person that you might be able to take just a little bit of risk with to share something with them, struggle, and then if that person's safe, build upon it. If that person isn't safe, keep trying. Do not give up. Keep trying until you find someone that can hold part of your story and then be able to hold more of it because I think that we need people to be able to hold our stories in order to grow.

Mark, that's a great word. And if people who are listening to this, you're like, I have no one in my life for that. I encourage you reach out to Dr. Mark, reach out to me, right? Like shoot us a DM. Absolutely. And you don't have to share a crazy amount. Start with a small thing, you know, and build on it. I would go as far as to say, don't go with a crazy amount to share. Just share a little bit of your story and then move from there.

Yeah. And see how the person responds. That's an excellent excellent word of encouragement. Dr. Mark, thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you for your story. I mean, I think this is really important for so many men to hear cuz sometimes you hear a story, they're like, "Oh, in two months I was, you know, porn free or I I kicked my addiction." And you're like, "Man, this has been a journey." Yeah. And now you're still working through it and God is still healing you.

Uh, and it's beautiful that God is doing that in your life and you're now able to help people truly be set free from addiction and truly be set free from their past. Uh, that's beautiful. Thank you for allowing God to use you that way cuz I know so many men need it. Yeah. And Ken, thank you for doing what you're doing. Really appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. Men, as we wrap up here, uh if this episode hit home, listen, don't keep it to yourself. Share this episode with someone who might be hurting.

And also for you, right? Share your story with just one person, right? like just one little part and ultimately know that the one person you could share everything with is Jesus. He wants to meet you in your darkest moments, right? So, make sure you share that with God. He will be there. He will guide you. He will protect you. Uh and for anybody else who's listening to this and you share with him, man, make sure to subscribe to the Shameless Podcast. Go check out Dr. Mark McNair's book, Finding My Words.

reach out to him on his website because we know that grace at the end of the day, real grace gets the last word. So, go kill shame, stand strong, and be on mission. Hope you guys have a great day and God bless. Thanks for joining us today. If you found this episode helpful, make sure to subscribe and leave a review. Remember, killing shame isn't just about breaking free from the past. It's about walking boldly into the future God has for you.