A Gospel-Centered View of LGBTQ Identity with Adam Westlake

Transcript

Welcome to the Shameless Podcast, where I help Christian men kill shame, stand strong, and live on mission. I'm your host, Ken P, and I'm bringing you real stories, practical insights, and biblical truths that equip you to break free from your sin, shame, and live a life of purpose. Let's step out of the shadows together and into the light of Christ. Welcome back to another fantastic episode where today's topic I believe is a sensitive topic but it's also going to be a very redemptive conversation because today we're going to talk about a gosp centered view of LGBTQ identity.

And uh the person I have with me to talk to us about it is Adam Weslake. He is a counselor and he has his own counseling ministry, but he's focused on reframing personal struggles within God's larger redemptive story. And on his either full-time or side hustle, Adam, you'll tell me. Uh you you are a musician, you are a musician, producer, you do all those things all day, every day. Uh but I'm excited to have you here today. Welcome, Adam. Thanks for having me, Ken. I'm glad to be here.

Yeah, Adam, you know, before we get into this, I know I mentioned that you were a musician, producer. Uh, tell me a little bit of of your mu musical background and what you've done. Yeah, I uh I tell folks from before the time I could actually speak English, uh, as a little one, I was humming along to songs, matching pitch. So, it was just kind of obvious from an early point in my life that music was going to be a part of what I do, uh, either for fun or what turned into occupationally.

And so that looked like piano lessons. That looked like playing the bassoon in middle school and high school. At some point, I picked up a guitar. And over my young adult life and and now on into my 30s, uh it's it's become what I do primarily for work is uh produce music, travel and play guitar. Um primarily in the kind of Christian music space. And so I just kind of write songs and make songs and spend some time at an organization called the worship initiative over the past decade or so um with Shane and Shane making songs and resources for worship ministers and worship teams um to create some things to help them as they lead their congregation.

So that's that's what I've been doing and over the last maybe half decade I've waited more and more into the counseling space. So that's kind of what brings us to today. I love it man. You know, funny story. I was just uh in a conversation with uh one of my co-workers and uh they were talking about creating a hobby and they're like, "Oh, maybe someone should start the mandolin or like start taking mandolin lessons." And no joke, I had no idea what it was. So, I'm googling it cuz I was like, "Oh, did you mean to say like learn Mandarin like the Chinese language?" Like, like I had no idea.

I didn't even know that was a thing. I didn't know that a thing. And when they saw it, I'm like, "Oh, it's a type of guitar, you Like, so I'm sure you would have known exactly what it is as soon as I said it. So I would have known. I thought you would have gotten a kick out of that. Okay. So Adam, you've been doing that now over the last 5 years. You've kind of been weighing into this counseling thing. I know you and I talked a little bit and you started doing it within your church as a ministry, something that you did for yourself and then you started to really plug in and start to work there.

But give us a little backstory of yourself and what made you decide to like get into this world of counseling. Yeah, I grew up in church um in West Texas. I tell people, picture an episode of Friday Night Lights and then plop a little 14-year-old sensitive me into an episode of that and you'll get a little bit of an understanding of what my upbringing was. My high school literally plays the team that Friday Night Lights is based off of. Uh, and so I I grew up as a pretty artistic sensitive kid in West Texas, which was pretty challenging.

Um, grew up in church as well, kids choir, music, youth band, worship band on Sundays. Um, and just got kind of left. And by that I mean, I think my parents assumed that the church was discipling me. I think the church assumed that my parents were discipling me. And so I spent a lot of time in and around church, but with very little formation or disciplehip. And it wasn't until I got to college and really kind of came to the end of my ability to manage some of my struggles on my own that in kind of an act of desperation, I reached out to a pastor who connected me to another guy in our church that led me into a recovery ministry at our church.

Then I ended up interning in that recovery ministry some years later. That's what connected me into the kind of Christian counseling, biblical counseling world that led to seminary. So just kind of my own story of really struggling to to map the truth of scripture that I was reading meaningfully onto kind of the challenges of my day-to-day life. Um once I kind of learned that that was possible, uh I was just kind of all in. First just to experience it for myself, but then over time gaining some skills and some wisdom to hopefully begin to be able to do that for others.

Yeah. Uh, dude, I I cannot tell you how many times I've talked to people and it's my story too, right? Where like I've bought so much into counseling and coaching because of how much it changed my life and I was like, "Wow, I want to do this to others." Uh, but I want to I want to take a step back in your story and you talked about like these struggles that you faced and particularly your sexual identity. Can you take us a little bit deeper of like how did that manifest for you and how did you live life with that sin or struggle uh poorly?

Uh but uh yeah, I really probably early adolescence, like pre-teen years, started to kind of notice, uh-oh, I'm finding myself drawn to uh guys that I'm around in a way that seems different than just I want to be friends with them. It's not just I want them to like me, but I want to be liked by them, you know, in maybe a a deeper kind of way. Yeah. Um, and I didn't really know what to do with it, frankly. I just knew that uh it was bad from culture, from what I heard on TV, from things that I would hear people say.

And so, it pretty quickly when I when I discovered this was something that I was dealing with, sent me pretty underground. um I pretty I just kind of perceived this isn't something either at church or at home that would be a really good idea for me to bring up. Um and so that just kind of began this secret of I experienced samesex attraction and I don't really know what to do with it. um in uh the Lord's mercy that's never really moved beyond um like in it's never really moved into like a a relationship with another man or another guy.

Um but has just looked like really personal temptation and lust over a a significant portion of my life. Yeah. What was the turning point of you being like, "Oh my gosh, this is an issue and I need to deal with it." Yeah, I think I got to college and if for anybody that struggles with really any kind of compulsive behavior, but there's there's all these like ultimatums you make with yourself along the way and there's all these like arbitrary like road marks or mile markers that goes, "Oh, well, once I start college or once I move into my new house or once I whatever, I'll stop then or then I'll make sure from there." I can never.

So, I had told myself one of those moving into college and it kind of worked for like two or three months and then it stopped working. I think I acted out looking at pornography and it was just one of those like the the the floor fell out and I just I just kind of gave up. I called a friend. I was just in full-blown like midnight crying. My roommate was gone for the semester because it was around Christmas break and I had like one friend that I called and he just came and sat with me for a couple of hours.

And then that next Sunday I went up to one of the pastors at my church and was just like, I need some help. And so there was just this sort of I came to my senses or came to the end of myself. I was just like, well, I guess we have to figure this out in a more significant way now. Yeah. What what was so like you decided to go talk to someone then, right? Where you were like, I need help now, but then you had all these years previously where you were trying to hide underground, right?

Mhm. What were like the the the lies or the excuses that you were telling yourself of like why didn't you come and get help sooner? Uh I think two things. One, the fear of the proverbial hammer falling. And so I think the fear of judgment was one. Um a second thing would be the the and I think accurately uh my perception that the people around me didn't really have the skill necessary to help me navigate this. Um, and then three, my own thought of I bet I could figure this out.

So, I think the fear of judgment kept me silent. I think the the ineptitude of other people to know how to meaningfully help. And then three, uh, this this really deep-seated, and I think this is in all people, uh, living east of Eden, but just this, I bet I can figure this out on my own. Yeah. I mean, I see that all the time with people like that I talk to, even if it's not a a sin or struggle, they're like, "Oh, I could figure this out." Right?

They're like, "I don't need YouTube. Like, I'll do I'll figure it out on my own." It's like, "No, why don't you get help?" They're like, "Nah, I got this." Right? Um, but I I want to talk about the ineptitude one, right, for a second, cuz I think this one is really interesting. You had this perception and I, you know, think about 20 years ago, right, 15 years ago, there wasn't a lot of counselors and Christians talking about like, how do you help people in this situation?

It was it was, for lack of a better word, very shameful to even come out like I struggle with this. How did you in your mind navigate those conversations when you're with people and you were struggling and specifically I'm thinking like those moments when you know you want to confess but like you're like no no I know they're not going to be able to help me. Yeah. I frankly didn't have any conversations. I think my parents because uh found pornography in our internet history talked to me about it once or twice and then I really didn't talk about it to anybody else for the dur until I moved away and went to college.

And so I think there was a lot of just silence. there was a lot of it's not really a part of the conversation or if it is it's lust in a general category. Um or it's talking to guys about how to not lust after girls. And in all of those there was just always this asterisk next to whatever was getting talked about and it was yeah but that's not quite for me because and so the absence of any public conversation uh led to a real absence of any sort of private conversation that I would have because I didn't know how to talk about it and I was perceiving that from looking around that no one else was really even talking about it.

Yeah. So, so how did you all of a sudden um realize that the silence was not enough? You decided to talk to the pastor and they started helping you. What started making the shift for you? Cuz you could have easily went to the other extreme and said, "This was okay. This is for me. This is just who I am." And you're going to live that lifestyle. But you started to find a way where you're like, "I want to honor God." And this is where it gets messy, right, for a lot of people in in Christian circles of how do you help people who are struggling with SSA?

Yeah. Well, as a as a happy Calvinist, I think part of what I'll say is just truly and not in some like, well, I just read it in a book and I think it's like I really do chalk it up to the the sustaining grace of God that that he kept me. M I I really do look at a lot of junctures in my life and say I don't really have a good reason for why I went the way that I did apart from the ministry of the spirit.

Um, yeah. And so I think what it really what really wisely this pastor that connected me with these other people, I think really wisely what they did was just spend time with me. And it wasn't, okay, we got to figure out this issue. We got to start talking about and doing all this deep work. It was just older guys who treated me normal. Um, which helped me see that maybe I wasn't that different. I think the the shame of a struggle like samesex attraction says you are so you are fundamentally more different than other guys than you are similar to them.

And meaningful friendship has with with other men has taught me that that's not true. And I think that actually created a kind of stability and steady footing for me um to actually begin to then look at and work through and process some of the more specific challenges related to sexuality. But I think first I had to just learn I'm not that different and that's actually a really good thing. Yeah. I I love how you said that cuz at the beginning when you were sharing your story, you were like I was this sensitive artistic kid, right?

That like I was different than everybody from West Texas or you felt like you were so different. But then the one of the culminating pieces or the shift was these guys were just treating you like normal, like, hey, you're a guy and we're going to care for you. We're going to love you. We're going to appreciate you. See your god-given gifts. Like I'm sure all those things were happening. Um, what were some other as as that started to happen? What were some other struggles that you see in yourself or maybe let's broaden it a little bit to the LGBTQ community that you see them having these struggles that are that they deal with when it comes to trying to reconcile their struggle and the gospel?

It's a great question. I think one of the the things that comes to my mind going back to the like I'm not that different. Um the way that I would describe it, I use this illustration with people all the time. It's like if I had two of these exact coffee mugs and I threw them both on the ground and they broke into a bunch of pieces. Uh they're going to break into different shaped pieces. Uh, however, they're made of the same stuff and all of the principles that are that that would apply to putting something like this back together work regardless of what shape the pieces break into.

And so I really think it's understanding the the sameness as opposed to differentness or distinction because that that asterisk that distinction of I'm different is so often used as sort of an escape hatch to go well here's why this wouldn't apply to me. Here's why this wouldn't work. Here's why you don't understand how hard this is. uh or this is unique and doesn't quite work for me because and while I think there are unique applications of the gospel in specific ways that you need to put specific pieces back together, it's the it's the refusal to say I actually need the same thing as everybody else.

Um, and I need to learn how to repent and trust Christ and walk by the spirit just like anybody else. It'll have some challenges that are unique to this particular struggle, but there will be enough grace for me. God will give me what I need. And so I think that's one of the things that I see is this hopelessness that comes from what I would what I would say is a false belief that I'm fundamentally in need of something else. Yeah. And and Adam, I would love for you to speak into this cuz as you think about them feeling fundamentally different, the language I've always used is that they see themselves their identity is completely different.

like they could never relate to this other side because they don't they equate struggle with identity. Right. That's right. And that's where I found many times people who who struggle with SSA they're like well you know I don't I don't like women so like God may not want to use me in that way. I'm like well forget about that for a second you know like let's just talk about your relationship with God. How do you see that with as you're helping um men and women look at the gospel?

How do you help them all of a sudden start to see their identity not in light of you know their LGBTQ identity but who they are in Christ? Yeah. I think it's first doing the work to see where somebody lands on do they really see this as part of their identity. Um I think experience and identity are different things. um something can be a profound experience and a consistent experience but not be something that's most fundamentally true of someone. Um and so I think first I'd start there and just going like where are we with this?

And then I would say the thing that I'm I'm often after with people, I'll I talked to somebody about it yesterday, this morning, I'll teach on it at a class this week at church is that fundamentally like we are as humans created limited uh dep and dependent um that Adam and Eve prefall needed to eat And so hunger is an innate part of what it means to be human, both physical but also spiritual, existential hunger. I think seeing that and then going, "Wow, in a myriad of ways, in a myriad of fallen ways, I'm prone to go try to find bread somewhere that will satisfy my soul, that will that will satiate my hunger." And Jesus, I think, is I think this is why he he very explicitly said that he's the bread of life.

I don't think he means just one bite of Jesus and you'll never be hungry again. I think it's helping people see there will always be enough for you. This is what Jesus is saying. There will be hunger. It's going to come. There will be longing. There will be desire. It will come. But Jesus at the end of the day has promised to be enough for you. Um, and when we can get to that place of going, it's not my identity, it's that I'm hungry for something.

Um, and Jesus has promised to be the one that satisfies my hunger. That sounds so churchy, but when we learn to really actually believe that and learn how to actually live it, I think it it helps us disconnect our identity from our struggle and allows it to actually be seen for what it is, which is I'm trying to go after a shadow to fill myself, which will only actually make me more of a shadow, less real. Jesus said he's true bread. when I go and eat of his flesh, drink his blood, I will become more real.

I will become more who he has made me and saved me to be. And then the struggles that I have um get put kind of in their proper place in terms of this is the thing I experience. This is the thing I struggle with, but it's not most fundamentally who I am. Yeah. Adam, I I love how you're using the bread of life, you know, uh analogy because it it really is, right? like how are we satisfying these innate desires and for all of us we have these uh I'm trying to remember who came up with this term but disordered desires right because of the fall we have these disordered desires and we go to all kinds of different things right I remember one time uh when I started first going through counseling um my counselor did this phenomenal thing we were doing this group counseling session and he said hey I know many of you in this room probably struggle with different things cuz we just use the word porn, right?

Like, oh, you've watched porn before. But then it's like what he did was very methodically just said, "This is all the types of porn out there that you might be into." And little by little, he just went through one thing at a time. And what he was dispelling one was the secrecy of it, right? But then he what the second part that he did was he was actually showing how Jesus was the bread of life to all these different scenarios. And I just remember sitting there thinking, "Oh my gosh, no matter like you went from a very general concept of, hey, he's the bread of life to very specific like, oh, you struggle with this type of pornography like this is how Jesus is the bread of life.

This is how he wants to satisfy you. This is what he's longing for." And my life radically changed in that one one session, dude. I mean, this was like five sessions deep in, but I was like, "Oh my gosh, I see what my heart is longing for." Uh so I say all that long long intro to this next question. What are some common themes that you see and maybe there aren't but some common themes you see with people struggling with SSA that are like um that they long for things that they're like hey I want this from God but I'm actually pursuing it in other ways.

Yeah. Gosh, a great question. I think you're right there. There's I mean a a myriad of of different things. Um, I think one would be using pornography to to sort of anesthetize self-contempt. Um, I see a lot of, if I was to put it succinctly, like I'm attracted to what I wish I was. Um, I so self-contempt for physical appearance or things like that. Um, I wish I was more blank and I find myself ne like I'm never going to be able to be that. And so since I can't be that, the next best thing is to possess that in someone else through sexuality.

Um I'll see uh in a really heartbreaking way. I'll probably cry if we talk about it for too long. um people being sexually attracted to uh characteristics uh physically uh or story lines physically uh story lines in their pornography that uh reenact or are really similar to uh characteristics of past abuse, whether physical characteristics or situations. Um those are two that come to mind immediately. Um, and then I think a general one would be just a deep desire for connection. Um, and to feel man enough.

Yeah. Okay. So, let's talk about those two if you don't mind. The the last two. The second one was like they want to reenact the abuse. I'm curious like I know a lot of people who want to like run away from it, but then they want to reenact it. Why why would they want to reenact it? I I've heard some say that reenactment is going back to a story in search of a different ending. Um that there's something in our subconscious that says if I can go back to this place, maybe I can make it go a different way.

Um, that's been something that I I And again, I'm I've only been doing this a little bit. So, there are probably people who know a lot more that could speak to this with more clarity, but um yeah, I see this like reenactment of oh, it really confirms self-contempt. It really confirms shameful narratives that people carry about themselves. and going back to these things. Uh the intensity of the experience helps us fly away from the pain of self-contempt, but we often use the very things that created shame in the first place to to get away from that pain.

And so it creates a kind of feedback loop. Yeah. You know, it's interesting is that I I have found I'll use my own story. I don't want to speak to to everyone else's um from my abuse abusive past that those were moments if I've recalled before God redeemed me those were the moments that I had the strongest emotions right and in some ways as being human I wanted to find a way to overcome those emotions but it was the only emotions I knew like I actually didn't know how to feel true joy I didn't know how to feel true peace all I actually knew was this like lustful confusion is the best way to put and fear and it's like oh well if those are the only emotions I know how to go to it all these things and I have found many people who come to me when they come with their abuse story that that's like similar where they're like I it's the only time I felt something um some yes it's something of aliveness um George McDonald is known for saying uh this little quote of he's saying what we need is more life um not more of the joy of life.

Um, and so often, uh, the intensity and and the the dopamine hit of sexuality is the most alive that we feel, especially in the the the deadening of heart that can come from years of uh, struggle or from moments of abuse and learning to go, "Oh, wow, that self-sabotaging behavior is actually because I don't know where else to go to feel alive. And it's why actually people will slowly over and time isolate more and more. Uh because the real world actually wakes things up in them.

Uh but it it's too difficult. It's too real. I'm thinking about uh the great divorce where the ghosts go up to heaven. They start walking towards the mountain and eventually the grass starts to hurt their feet and feel like nails uh because they're it's too real uh for how they currently are. And the journey that Jesus I think is offering to take us on is that when we eat his flesh and drink his blood, he makes us more solid and more real to be able to actually enter into the mixture that life often is, which is joy and sorrow, hopefulness and loss.

uh happiness and grief and to say I don't know how to live in tension like that so often and that sexuality allows me to just have all of one and then I feel bad and so I swing all of to another and it keeps me kind of all on one side of the line or not as opposed to uh the way Beckner talks about it where he says nothing's human that's not a broth of false and true. Um, nothing is a nothing is not a mixture this side of things in some way.

Um, this is that part where I told you I'm prone to ramble. Uh, and so I I I just go, man, what we need is more life, not more of the fruits of life. So often people are tempted actually towards sexual sexual sin on really good days, not on really bad days. And I think it's because of something like that, which is I'm more awake than I've been in a while. I don't want it to stop. Yeah. Over here is where there's more. Yeah. I I mean, I think that's fascinating cuz so many times I've talked to guys who they're like there's the common stories of the relapse, right, of like, oh yeah, I relapsed when I had a hard day.

But then the ones that scare them the most is where they're like, I had an awesome day and then all of a sudden I was just prone to wanting to pursue this thing. like what happened? And that's where actually more shame comes, right? Because they feel like, oh my gosh, I thought I knew who I was. I thought I was good at something, but now all of a sudden it went away. Yeah. And no matter what I do, even on good days where I feel like I'm doing well, uh it's still going to be there.

And going Yeah. That's your humanness. That's that good part of you that's hungry for life. Now we have to learn not just how to shut down desire which is so much of what you know the past 30 years of we the purity culture that whole thing but uh not just shut down desire but actually learn how to steward it and wield it as something to bring goodness into the world as opposed to just well how do I not do bad things or want bad things. Yeah.

So, so let's talk about that, you know, as as we shift this conversation for those who are struggling with SSA and they're struggling with just sin, sexual sin in general, right? How do you help them steward these desires uh so that they can live in wholeness and live within God's redemptive beautiful story saying, "Hey, doesn't matter what sin you're committing or what struggles you have like you're you can be my son. You could be my child. That could be your identity. But now also as your identity, you also have a mission to be a part of.

Yeah. And I think that that last part's really huge because it it says, "Hey, following Jesus is about more than just subtracting bad things from your life. Um, a a relationship with Jesus that's about perpetual subtraction isn't really one that will feel very abundant." And so I think I'm after helping people notice when they get hungry and saying, "What am I what am I hungry for right now?" Okay, I'm feeling blank. What's a way that I can meaningfully satisfy that desire in a righteous way that honors the Lord?

and how can I offer humility and openness by sharing with other people what I feel like I need. I think it's learning to not be ashamed of needing things. Not being ashamed of hoping for things or wanting things from other people. Not in some codependent way, but just to say, "My life is hard and I'm having a I'm having a hard time right now or today. I just wanted you to know and wondered if you'd help me in this way." And so I think it's it's first going is some getting someone to the place of saying am I willing to do that?

Am I willing to not just confess sin? This is something like real time my accountability group of guys that I spend a lot of time with and I'm in a very active group text with. Even in my own life, I'm going guys, I want to all the more be talking about things on the front end instead of the back end. I want to talk on the front end of sin, not on the back end. I say, "I'm having a hard day and I'm feeling pretty lonely or I'm feeling disappointed or I'm feeling pretty angry." And I know that might lead me to feeling tempted later.

I think it would really help if I could spend some time with some of some of y'all tonight or one of y'all and your wives tonight. Could I come to anybody's place tonight just so I could be around some folks? And and I think what I'm hoping people notice in an answer like that, especially if you're somebody who struggles with samesex attraction, is that nothing about what I just said used the words sexuality, samesex attraction. That's I'm trying to illustrate. It's just another expression of hunger and seeking food in a false way.

And so when I can just acknowledge my hunger to other people, I think it neutralizes some of the shame and judgment that we can we can feel for feeling tempted in the ways that we are and will actually allow us to experience God's power being made perfect in our moments of weakness as we're open about them. Yeah. And and that actually goes to that last um point when you were saying, "Hey, here's the three ways that people struggle." The third one is just connection. Like you're using that example as like I want to feel connected.

I want to feel alive by being with people, you know. Uh I told I told my wife this the other day because we were just chatting it up and uh we just moved to to Nashville, Tennessee several years ago, so we're still trying to build our community and uh someone recently was just like she was telling them like, "Oh man, I kind of feel lonely." And they were like, "Hey, well, you just need to like learn how to be satisfied in Christ." And we're like, "Thumbs down." Uh I was like, "Yeah, yes." Like I get it, but but right like I was like but we were created for community.

We were created to connect with one another, right? Like as God is trinity, right? He's three persons in one. We are also called to be in unity. I I told her this passage that's been super powerful in my walk was 1 John 4:12. It says, "No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, his love is made complete in us." Yeah. And just that concept of like, well, if we actually want to see the true love of Christ manifested in our day-to-day lives, like we got to be with each other.

And I and and just the way you talked about it, like, hey, I'm struggling. I'm feeling hungry. Uh I used to tell people this. I heard this from a communicator long ago. I don't remember who it was, but they would always say, "Confess your thoughts before you have to confess your sins." Oh, I love that. Yeah. And I was just like, "Oh, like it's way easier." And I'm like, I tell my friends all the time like, "Hey, I'm struggling with this. I'm struggling with that." Like, and I love it.

I'm sure you're like, "I'm about to go get a free meal now." Right? Cuz you're like, "Hey, can I hang out with someone tonight?" And they're like, "Come on over." Totally. Totally. It It makes me think of this thing that was so common for me that I see. I talked about it with somebody today. Um, especially if you've like grown up in church or been around church for any amount of time. Uh, for so long, I'll use myself as the example. For so long, I sought like the truth, the right answers, proper understandings, proper systematic theologies, whatever, thinking that those things would like solve the Rubik's cube.

Um, but those things on their own weren't changing me. And it's because I wasn't actually learning how to relate to God through them. It was actually how I was using uh theology and truth about God to keep God at arms length. I was using my right answers as like a way to spiritually bypass my heart and to not have to acknowledge my sorrow, my longing, my anger, my soul hunger. Um because I kind of thought if I knew the right things then I would change and I wouldn't have to really look at all those things that were painful in my past or in my present.

And that really did prove feudal. It was only I think as I learned how to live that Psalm 62 like pour out your heart before him. Yeah. And really speak with God about the things I say I'll say it this this way to folks. Why not talk to God about the things in your heart that he already knows are there. Um when you do that like I think the Lord goes now we're talking. Heck yeah. like he's like more like that, son. That's what I'm that's what I mean.

And and I like when my heart was open enough for him or to him, that meant it was also open enough for him to like reach into those parts of my heart and actually bring about something of change or redemption. Yeah. And and and that's the the beauty, right, of of everything we're doing here, right, and talking about is like we want people to see what redemption could look like and how they could be redeemed. Um Adam, as as you think about this conversation, I'm sure you and I can ramble and talk for a long time, right?

Um but as we wrap up with people who are struggling and they're like, "Adam, I I know I'm struggling. I know I need help, but they don't know where to start. What's like a good first maybe one or two practical steps they can start today? Yeah. Gosh, a great a great question. I think first can you like are you willing to name it? Like I I would start by telling someone to ask themselves that question like are you willing to name it to yourself? Like I talked with somebody recently who I you know somewhere between 20 and 30 and I I was the first person that they had ever told that they experienced samesex attraction.

They hadn't told their wife. They hadn't ever told anybody that they were in community with. Um it was the first time they'd ever said it out loud. Um, and I just so blessed the courage in that person. And so I think the first piece of practical advice I would I would give someone is to say look for someone that you trust that you can be truthful with. Um, shame dies in the light and grows in the dark. And so you can take a really courageous step and do a kind of violence to the evil that keeps you bound by walking in the light.

This is first John 1. If we walk in the light as he's in the light, then we have fellowship with one another. So there's connection and the blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from our sins. So that's healing of guilt and shame. And so I think it if you can have the courage to just find one person that you trust. Um that can be a therapist, that can be a pastor, that can be someone in your community, your small group. Um if you can start there, you've actually taken one of the more pivotal steps.

You've crossed a kind of Rubicon that you can't really ever uncross. You could never say, "Well, I've never told anybody before." And it creates a kind of movement that if you were if you if you're to hoist your sails even higher, I think you'll catch more of the wind of God and keep moving. Yeah. So, Adam, for those people, I'm going to do this. I'm going to throw the layup for you, right? But for those people who are like, I can't find anyone or I don't trust anyone, but they listen to this and they're like, I think I could trust Adam.

I heard his story. He he would understand me better than other people. What's like the best way that they could reach out to you or contact you and just be like, "Hey, Adam, I want to be truthful for the first time in my life with someone." Yeah, there there's two ways primarily. Um, first would be adamlaccounseling.com. There's a there's a contact form. There's a schedule an appointment with me button on the website. So, that would be one way. I'm on Instagram, just Adam Westlake um for things there.

I'm not the best at social media. It's basically just intermittent pictures of my house with Frederick Beer quotes. Um, but those would be the two places. Um, and gosh, if if somebody wanted to do that from listening to this, I'd just be so happy to to receive a message from them. That's awesome. Adam, uh, any final words of encouragement for those listening and they're like, I want the joy that you have. I want peace. I want to finally feel like I could be open and not feel ashamed um of what I'm dealing with.

What would be the one piece of advice you got for that? This is a great question. I don't want to give a a cheap answer. I think I would say you'll always find in your in your fallen flesh and in the multitude of voices in the world, you'll always have more reasons to walk away from Jesus. um then you have reasons to stay in one sense, but they won't be better reasons than the ones that the wisdom of God's word gives us. Um my friend Shane, who I've spent the better part of a decade playing music with, uh says there's no way to turn off our wanting spot because we're made wanters.

Uh Psalm 23:1 though, if the Lord's my shepherd, then I can find all of my wanting in him. Um it's not that I stop wanting, but that he satisfies all my wants. And I just tell people it really is worth it to keep going and to not turn to the right or to the left. He Jesus really is worth it. And the goodness that he promises to bring into your life, this side of his return and the the ultimate joy that he promises on the far side of it really are worth it.

Adam, that's so good. And to remember that he's our shepherd and he's a really, really good shepherd and he's going to bring us to everlasting glory, you know, and and it's going to be we're not going to have any more pain, any more sorrow, any more uh temptation. It's going to be like, wow, we're finally home and all our desires are satisfied in him. Uh, and that's going to be a beautiful day. Um, Adam, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for uh sharing your story and also just sharing your wisdom, man.

I I got a lot out of this. I hope the audience will will get that too. And for those of you who are listening and you're like, "Man, I really could speak to Adam or you want to speak to Adam, please." I'm going to put his information in the show notes. Adam Westlake counseling.com. All right. So, make sure make sure you go check that out. Adam, thank you once again for being here. And for those of you who are still listening, remember every day, kill shame, stand strong, and be on mission.

Hope you guys have a great day and God bless. Thanks for joining us today. If you found this episode helpful, make sure to subscribe and leave a review. Remember, killing shame isn't just about breaking free from the past. It's about walking boldly into the future God has for you.